Talk:Alsace
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Identity
Since its conquest by Louis XIV, Alsace has been more loyal to France than German, because Louis XIV freed the serfs thus allowing greater growth and freedom. THis should be placed in the article.
On the list of notable Alsatians, Albert Schweitzer is conspicuous by his absence. User:sca 5 Oct 04
Political bias
The history section in the article is totally biased (with anti-French/German nationalist approach), and needs to be seriously rewritten. Hardouin 03:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Can you explain the nature of the bias? Thanks Guettarda 23:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Please see my comment at Talk:Lorraine --Tkinias 01:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Revisions for NPOV. I suggest the NPOV tag now be removed.
- "Alsace and Lorraine were reunited with Germany after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870" - corrected; Germany did not exist before 1870 so there was no question of reunification
- "After World War I those Alsatian, who moved in from other parts of Germany, were expelled. The re-establishment of German identity was reversed following the German surrender in 1918." > "After World War I the re-establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, while Alsatians who came originally from Germany were expelled." I.e., "other parts of" removed
- "while putting a halt to the anti-German oppression" = "oppression" changed to "discrimination", a correct and less emotive term
- "The war-torn area was given again in 1944 to France, which had then free hands to restore its policies." > "..which restored its policy of promoting the French language."
Rollo 13:49, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The flaws run far deeper than a few offensive expressions. As I suggested at Talk:Lorraine, we need a discussion of the Alsace-Lorraine issue. The problem is that the "two sisters" have immense potency as nationalist symbols on both sides of the border, and both sides try to paint the regions as "really French" or "really German", when in fact they were neither for most of the history, because nationalism hadn't been invented yet. And the "anti-German" policies were not anti-German, but standard French republican centralization and homogenizing -- the same process going on in Provence, Bretagne, etc. --Tkinias 14:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree. It is clearly a more complex issue than simply one of two colliding nationalisms. But as to the question of whether the article is even-handed, I can't find anything factually suspect. And the tone seems to me reasonably fair to both sides. Now it would seem to be just a question of adding a section to highlight the points you raise. --Rollo 10:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What about a new article that both Alsace and Lorraine can link to? I might be able to write one up after the end of the semester here. —Tkinias 11:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why not? As it happens I don't know a lot about this subject - I was just trying a bit of neutral dispute resolution. Still, the NPOV tag still seems to be there... Rollo 02:00, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Everybody knows-Alsatians are pseudo-French. VIVE L'ALSACE ALLEMANDE !!!
---A very good example for a neutral point of view is the page about the macedonians.
Alsace/Elsass
Alsace was part of the German-speaking territory of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648 when most of it was wrested from the Emperor by the King of France in the Treaty of Westphalia which concluded the Thirty Years' War. The Emperor ceded Alsace outright to avoid having the King of France as member of his estates. Later in the same century, Strasbourg was also seized by Louis XIV, who reinstated Catholicism.
Whilst Alsace is largely German-speaking (and, strictly speaking, most German speakers do not speak Standard German but Alsatian dialect, a dialect identifiable as German without any doubt whatsoever), it is difficult to say whether it is definitely 'German' or 'French'. The German-speaking Alsatians share a status similar to that of German-speaking Austrians in the Southern Tirol, i.e. they are part of a geographically continuous German speech community but find themselves located in a neighbouring state with an unrelated national language. One may ask to what extent German-speaking South Tiroleans look to Vienna rather than Rome, and in the same way the German-speaking Alsatians look to Berlin.
The following points may be of note.
1. The first-ever printed German Bible was published in Strasbourg in 1466 . During the 16th century, there were probably in excess of 3000 books printed in Strasbourg. Of those known, only three were in French. The rest were in German (the vast majority), Latin or other languages such as Greek. Strasbourg was a very important centre of German protestantism and many of Luther's works were published there during the sixteenth century. These facts, along with the existence of Albert Schweitzer, tend to be overlooked by histories written in French.
2. A German nationhood or even nationality was only just begining to emerge within the multi-ethnic and multi-lingual Holy Roman Empire in the 17th century. Therefore it would not be correct to say 'a part of Germany was siezed by the French', but that is not to say that Alsace could never have been described as 'German'. It was very firmly entrenched in German cultural influence. More important to the ordinary Alsatian in the 17th century were his freedoms.
3. After the defeat of Napoleon, the Austrian Emperor refused to let Alsace become part of Prussia for fear of Prussian strength. Through this most unlikely demonstration of generosity to the French, Alsace remained part of France.
4. Alsatian German was the main language of most people until the twentieth century; however, the ruling classes and wealthier middle classes tended to speak French in the nineteenth century.
5. It may well be the case that German and French languages acquired a social connotation during the 19th century, and emerging social conflict therefore exacerbates the language and national question.
6. When Alsace-Lorraine was reunited with the German-speaking world in the German Reich under Bismark in 1871, its status was inferior to other German Länder. It had far less representation than others and it was a personal domain of the Kaiser. It was termed 'Reichsland Elsass-Lothringen'.
7. There were migrations from Alsace of wealthier French speakers at this time, and many German-speakers moved in from Germany proper. At this time, standard German became the official language, but it is not correct to say that French was banned or ignored. There was a (albeit unequal) dual lingualism.
8. Through its membership of the German Reich, the region developed and industrialised, and there are many monuments to this period (1871-1919), such as the railways, the Postal Service, the 'Ville Allemande' in Strasbourg, etc. The population grew and the region prospered. The University of Strasbourg was founded.
9. Where the sympathies of the Alsatians lay at the outbreak of the First World War is hard to say. They were enlisted to fight for the German Reich, of course, and did so often in the remote East (East Prussia). This may, or may not, be a token of the German Army's uncertainty about their loyalties. Often Alsatians were described unflatteringly by officers. It is hard to say whether the population of Alsace as a whole welcomed German defeat and its subsequent reincorporation into France or resented it. There was undoubtedly a mixture, and it depended largely who you were and what you had to gain or lose.
10. After the First World War, significantly, the French refused a plebiscite in the region and expelled all Germans who had settled there during 1871-1919. This was an early example of 'ethnic cleansing'.
11. The German language was suppressed in the period between the World Wars.
12. Undoubtedly, German rule 1940-44 was uncompromising. Again, no plebiscite was granted after the Second World War, unlike the Saar region.
13. It seems strange, at least to the eye, to imagine an historian as eminent as Phillipe Dollinger arguing for France with such a German name; it is odder to find Alsatian speakers with German names saying they are definitely French. During the Wilhelmine period, over 80% of the region described itself as German-speaking in the censuses.
14. There have been movements for autonomy since the 19th century.
15. In conclusion, it is possible to say, on balance, that Alsace, and Strasbourg, belong traditionally to the German Kulturkreis. However, it was never part of a German nation state except for the period 1871-1919. It is interesting to speculate how a plebiscite might have gone after the First World War. After the Second World War, German became 'unfashionable' as the language of dictatorship, and French was eagerly embraced by the inhabitants. This is now giving way to a cautious resurgence of interest in German roots and Alsatian dialect. Standard German is now being favoured in schools. However, this may undermine, rather than strengthen, dialect. In the cities, virtually all speak French and German is not heard that often. French people as a whole are far more sensitive about Alsace than Germans; e.g. a museum worker in the Museum of Alsatian Life in Strasbourg reacted indignantly when he was asked about the state of the German language in Strasbourg. His reply was 'ce n'est pas l'allemand, c'est l'alsacien!' The French never want really to use the word 'German' in connexion with Alsace. (The Germans are far more sentimental about the loss of their Eastern Territories (East Prussia, Danzig, Pomerania and Silesia) than they are about Alsace-Lorraine.)
16. Finally, it is worth noting that the French have always had a far more prescriptive and illiberal language policy when compared to the Germans. Native historians have always tended to be biased about the affiliation of Alsace. We need to remember, too, that language does not define nationality, contrary to what the French King Francois I proposed in the 16th century.
A notable link for German-speakers is www.elsass-lothringen.de
Very interesting - how about incorporating some of this in the article? Point 5 in particular is an excellent point that surely needs including in the article. --Rollo 21:50, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Elsaß non Elsass
There's no reason to use the controversial modernized spelling for Elsaß when citing the German name; it was spelt with the ß when the province was part of Germany. (It's particularly odd to use the ss spelling when mentioning the stamp overprint which very clearly uses the ß.) This isn't German Wikipedia, so we don't have to follow the whims of German governments... —Tkinias 09:21, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Except to say, Tkinias, regarding your (correct) assertion that this is not German Wikipedia) that ß is not a member of the English alphabet, and that Elsass is not a word in English at all. The whims are not just German, but also Austrian. Switzerland has never used the ß character. Elsass is a more useful spelling nowadays, especially given search facilities on the internet.
- Please log in and sign your comments; anon comments are not very helpful. I've fixed Strasbourg and added a note about the modernized spelling for Elsaß. Whether ß is part of English spelling or not is irrelevant when citing German names. —Tkinias 02:22, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Will the person who 1) cannot spell or write standard English properly, 2) cannot punctuate properly, and 3) doesn't know his facts, stop editing this article. Some editing comes from the US which no doubt explains it.
Thank you
Religious exception?
I have read that Alsace (and the northern part of Lorraine) is exempt from the 1905 French separation of church and state because it was part of the German Empire at that time. Instead, when it was retaken by France it continued to follow the Napoleonic Concordat of 1801, under which Catholic, Protestant and Jewish clergy are paid by the state.
Is this true today? If so, it should be added to the article. Funnyhat 03:25, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- yes it is. Rama 08:09, 18 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- The article contains a link to Separation of church and state, which explains this in some detail (see "France" section). olivier 08:14, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)