Talk:Amsterdam

This is what the Dutch always say, but usually "capital" just means the seat of government. Capitals are sometimes boring places full of politicians, bureaucrats and lawyers, e.g., Sydney is not the capital of Australia. --195.149...

I would disagree. "Capital" does not mean major city, that is true. But Amsterdam is declared as the capital in the Dutch constitution, while The Hague is "only" Seat of Government -- in contrast to Australia. By the way, after German re-unification in 1991, Berlin was declared capital, but became seat of government only after the administration finished moving there a few years ago. --UsagiYojimbo 11:47 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Link Removals

Moved from article:

To be done: Bijlmerbajes - Bijlmerramp - Amsterdam Sail - architecture - monuments - annual events - more on population - famous Amsterdammers -- Viajero

I restored the link. --Patrick 11:51 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Superfluous Construction Info

I commented out a couple of lines, which seem superfluous and/or in need of elaboration.
Isn't it a little early to be talking about the North/South Line? -- Viajero 09:36 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

As practical info for passengers it is premature, as a big project going on right now it is not at all. --Patrick 09:55 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Can we move the list of Stadsdelen to the end? --Viajero

Better not, it is core info, and the rest of the article sometimes refers to them. --Patrick 09:55 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Well, how about a separate section, Municipal organization or something? --Viajero 10:45 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

It is not just a political subdivision, but these are well-known quarters. If you are going to add a lot about the quarters you can make it a separate section. --Patrick 11:51 28 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Ok, I think they need some description, will think about it. --Viajero 11:33 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Public Transportation

Another thing: section public transportation seems too much like tourist info, not enough like encyclopedia entry. What do you think? --Viajero 11:33 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think this is encyclopedic info and do not think anything of it should be deleted, but if you want to add other aspects of public transport in Amsterdam, go ahead. --Patrick 12:18 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, but the paragraph after the bulleted information reads too much like a Lonely Planet Guide to me --Colin Angus Mackay 21:33, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I guess I mean not so much the information itself but the way it is presented. Just a listing, no description, discussion. Anyway, I have some ideas which I will try to incorporate late this week. -- Viajero 13:47 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I think the bulleted list is fine, it is the paragraph that follows it that is providing tourist "advice". --Colin Angus Mackay 21:33, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I changed it. --Patrick 23:57, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Wiki-links

Patrick, for my tastes this page is becoming over-wickifyied:

beach,
theater,
city hall,
performance

don't seem to me to be terms that should be linked. They are not concepts of particular relevance to the topic of Amsterdam; just common English words. -- Viajero 09:38 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I do not think there is anything wrong with these links. If you do not find them useful, simply do not click on them. They do not do any harm. If someone argues that he/she does not find it worth the effort to put these links I respect that (as long as they are not deleted). The term beach is relevant for Amsterdam, otherwise it would not have been mentioned. Now that it is mentioned somebody may decide that he/she wants to read about those in general. The link shows that there is an article on beaches and makes it also convenient to go there. --Patrick 09:55 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Tourist Attractions

Patrick, you consider Madame Tussaud's on the same par as the Rijsmuseum??? Like maybe we should also include Hard Rock Cafe and Planet Hollywood and other commercial junk culture... and for that matter Casa Rosa... Perhaps you'd like to list all the Burger King's as well...

PS: I am sorry to have marked the last changes minor; you are quite right. -- Viajero 16:22 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It is one of the tourist attractions of Amsterdam. You seem to be interested in Amsterdam, then please concentrate on additions and corrections, instead of from time to time arbitrarily deleting things you are less interested in! --Patrick 16:40 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Motto's Historical Anachronism

I deleted 'The three Xs -St Andrew's crosses- represent the three virtues of the city: Valor, Resolution, and Mercy. '

I assume whoever wrote this is referring to the motto carried in the Amsterdam coat of arms. (Helhaftig, Barmhartig, Vastberaden) This motto was granted to Amsterdam by Queen Wilhelmina in 1947 in recognition of Amsterdam resistance efforts during WWII. Since the flag dates back far earlier, it is very unlikely that the crosses would refer to this motto. -- viezeric 13:01 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've read, but can't remember where, that the three crosses represent the three things that have been the greatest threats to Amsterdam throughout the ages: Fire, Water and The Plague.

Helhaftig will probably be heldhaftig. This sure is a freudian mistyping, especially relating WWII. (Helhaftig = like hell; heldhaftig = hero-like). -DePiep 14:19, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Organization & cutting down to size

I'm done editing. I've left most of the content as I found it (and added only a few lines here and there to make things more clear) but the page is now very long. Maybe we could open separate entries for Amsterdam (history) and Amsterdam (tourist information)? And I think most information about the administrative changes in the 80s and 90s could be deleted. (or put in a seperate entry Amsterdam (administrative changes) )We should aim for something like the nl.wikipedia entry for amsterdam. Add categorys like geography, administration, economy, demograpics etc etc These could all be relatively short. When I've time (maybe during the holidays I'll have a look at it.) PS we should remove all links to tourist information. It is hard to explain why some links are allowed and others not. One guy at least seems not to understand :) (I'll go and delete them now) --Chardon

Link suggestions

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Amsterdam's "Hipness" surpassed by Rotterdam?

I am a bit confused by this statement located under "Nightlife". Although definitely a POV from the poster, if it is based on a scientifically gathered popularity poll conducted of Dutch citizens it is otherwise improbable that Rotterdam is more "hipper" than Amsterdam from an International POV. --BourbonKing

A few years ago there was some talk in the Dutch media about the difference between Amsterdam and Rotterdam nightlife. Their conclusion was that Rotterdam had the better clubs and scene. I think that was what the original contributor had in mind. --Chardon

Well, which place is 'hipper' is not very NPOV, I'd say. --JimmyShelter 08:43, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the sections Populair Culture & Nightlife should be merged. The venues mentioned in the populair culture are part of the nightlife. --JimmyShelter 09:27, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I agree. Anyway, I'm not that happy with tourist information on this page. It would be better to have it as a seperate article (or just tremove it completely. We have the amsterdam travelwiki link, which is a thorough article about the tourist attractions of amsterdam) Something completely different: For Egil who edited amsterdams geo location and others: from kstars (http://edu.kde.org/kstars/) the exact geographical location of amsterdam is: lon 04 51 59.00 lat 52 20 59.99 :) --Chardon

I moved the nightlife section from the Tourist information to the Culture section. Maybe we can move the 2 remaining parts under Tourist Information to another place too. JimmyShelter 23:06, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The crime paragraphs could be part of an 'Amsterdam and the law' section (number of police, courts, mentioning mayor is head of the police, the 'driehoek' (how to translate that in English :-) ) etcetc. The food section, I have no idea. Just remove it or give it a seperate article.

Unfortunately I don't have much time right now and since I don't have all the information at hand to write something like that it, would be a too big undertaking for me. Same goes for a 'health' section. --Chardon

Commercial Link

JimmyShelter, anon IP, do you mind discussing the editwar over the proposed link to the travel site, rather than just endlessly reverting without any attempt at a conversation? --Improv 16:00, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the wikipedia link guidelines nor could I find quickly a link to such a guideline so I just use the: wikipedia is an 'encyclopedia' policy. People come to the Amsterdam article to read about Amsterdam and gain some knowledge. They do not come here to book a hotel (at least I hope they do not :) ). Anyway, the removing is always done with a comment, the adding from a anon ip and no explenation. --Chardon

Chardon is right. Besides the only action from one one the anon ips is adding this commercial link. I'm not expecting the anon ip to chime in on this talk page. --JimmyShelter 09:14, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The reason I wanted some kind of note is so that if we eventually need to take some action to get the anon IP's attention, and we later go back to look at why whatever we did was done, we can easily find it documented here. As for now, I'm going to add a HTML comment to the section telling the anon to come see the talk page and chime in. --Improv 14:31, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Hello! Finally found out why I couldn't insert a link to my site Amsterdam Hotspots. I'm not really sure how to add a comment here, but I'll try my best. It seems you feel Amsterdam Hotspots is a commercial site, and furthermore it seems that 'commercial sites' do not deserve to be mentioned. Amsterdam Hotspots is an online guide to Amsterdam which covers pretty much the same topics as any printed guidebook, the difference of course being that the information is always up to date, and that it is possible to interact with other visitors to the site. If you think the site is about hotel bookings only, please take some time to browse the site, you will find that it gives a comprehensive overview of things to do in Amsterdam, for visitors and residents alike. As such I think it would deserve to be mentioned on the Wikipedia page about Amsterdam. It's not possible to determine beforehand what kind of info visitors to this page are looking for, is it? If the site was about hotel bookings only I could understand you banning the site, but in reality the hotel bookings facility is a really minor portion of the content. I'd like to hear your thoughts about this... [62.195.252.195 5 April 2005 11:41]

Sorry for the long delay in answering your questions.. I just saw your comments today. The reason why I delete the link is just as you say: Amsterdam Hotspots is a webpage with touristguide information. I think Wikipedia is not the place for that kind of information. Chardon

I thought I saw something about the setting up of a tourist-guide book wiki about a month or so ago, but now I cannot find any reference to it. Either I was mistaken, or it was a dead project idea that has floated off somewhere. Personally, I thought it would be an excellent idea because there are a number of entries here in wikipedia that verge on being mostly tourist information. --Colin Angus Mackay 11:29, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Just to follow up on my previous comment. There is a www.wikitravel.org (http://wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page) website that was set up by wikipedian's using the same software. There is also a template {{wikitravel}} that can be inserted into Wikipedia articles to link to Wikitravel. More details here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikitravel). --Colin Angus Mackay 11:38, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

'Wandering Idiots'

Amsterdam has a lot of homeless psychiatric patients (zwerfgekken). I say this is a result of government policy. A quote to support this view:

"Je kunt de toename van het aantal zwervende psychiatrische patiënten in stad en land voor een groot deel verklaren uit het beleid. Dat is erop gericht de rol van de psychiatrische klinieken te verkleinen. Maar beleid- makers en financiers lijken zich over de toename van de 'zwerfgekken' te verbazen en zoeken de oorzaak bij een veranderende samenleving. De oplossing die ze kiezen is de rol van de klinische psychiatrie nog verder te verkleinen, wat natuurlijk averechts werkt. De vraag is wie er voor de echte gekken zorgt. Er moeten meer plaatsen in klinieken komen voor die laatste groep." -G.R. Van den Berg, directeur behandelzaken van het Psychiatrisch Ziekenhuis Amsterdam. --Prater 10:41, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"Well, as a family member of a former psychiatric patient I know how hard it is to get someone commited against their own will. A large share of the 'zwergekken' are people who could be helped, but don't want to get help. I'm not fond of the current government policy, but to just blame it on them isn't completely fair. Maybe the text should be changed to include both explanations? --JimmyShelter 10:51, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes it's not government policy or a lack of funding that is to blame but new treatment (well not really new. It started in the 70s) methods for psychiatric patients. If I remember correctly the present situation is that the mayor has to sign an order to lock someone up against his/her will. Last year a new center was opened where people could be held and treated for a short period of time. It had to close again soon after it opened because of fire regulaions? or something like that (I don't remeber the exact details).

It could be part of an paragraph about Amsterdams health system. (hospitals, huisartsen (general practioners), GG&GD etcetc. We miss something like that. --Chardon

Hmmm, I think that this is not a specific problem of Amsterdam per se but of national health policy. I agree it should be mentioned in Wikipedia, but I am not sure where. Pehaps history of the Netherlands or the government (Ruud Lubbers?) which implemented the changes?... -- Viajero 18:35, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Size

This is a big article and I think we should be carefull that it shouldn't get to big. Let's not add all kinds of factoids, trivia etcetc (though they may be interesting to know) that makes it difficult to learn something about Amsterdam. I would certainly give some sections seperate wikipedia entries. Unfortunately I don't have the time to do it good. Eugene showed us the way how to do it. --Chardon

Languages

A note on what languages are spoken and their popularities might be useful. -- Maru Dubshinki 01:36 PM Friday, 01 April 2005

The number of nationalities is mentioned. That should cover the number of languages. This page already has to much detailed information and I don't think adding will make this page more readable. What it needs is a good edit :) --Chardon

I was really thinking more along the lines of 'If you ask a random person in Amsterdam, what is the likelihood they speak X?" where X is the would-be tourists language. -- Maru Dubshinki 08:52 AM Saturday, 02 April 2005

Well that is another problem with this page. It is to much a tourist guide and not enough an encyclopedia article. --Chardon

I agree with Chardon; this article needs a thorough cleanup. One option would be to simply delete the tourist info and/or trivia as it belongs elsewhere on the Web (my choice). Another would be to move it to Amsterdam tourist information. Thoughts? -- Viajero 16:22, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

refactoring

Partly inspired the Dutch article, which I thought was cleaner and better organized, I have refactored text to History of Amsterdam, Amsterdam (municipality), and Talk:Amsterdam/tourist_info, the latter for discussion. -- Viajero 17:50, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

well done --chardon

I think the article could now use a succinct overview of current issues, such as the housing shortage/kraakbeweging, multicultural conflicts, autolauw policies, straatgekken, and so forth. --Viajero

I think you mean autoluw ;-) -DePiep 14:16, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Flag orientation

I think the three-crossed-bar should be upright (now it's horizontally, see the first picture). Or is there a official coat of arms, showing so? More official then what is shown halfway this article? I propose to put it upright, bar vertical. -DePiep 14:22, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The flag, as depicted in the article, is correct. See, for example Flags of the World (http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/nl-amsdm.html). The coat of arms has a vertical bar, the flag has a horizontal bar. Eugene van der Pijll 16:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Length

This article is not long at all. The Rotterdam article is quite a bit longer. Rotterdam has more than 100,000 people less than Amsterdam and it is commonly reffered to as The Netherlands' second city. I read parts of the discussion page , and it seems that there used to be a Tourist Attractions section. What ever happened to that? I know there is a lot more information about Amsterdam. I hope people will be willing to help me extend this article. Thank you. - Big Brother is Watching 4:27, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it's better if you write a seperate article Amsterdam (tourist attractions) and not post links (even to the official vvv site) to sites that are trying to make you spend money in Amsterdam. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a tourist guide. More, this site is not intended as a free advertisment spot for hotels and bars in Amsterdam. If they want costumors they can find other ways of getting them. chardon

I'm not sure what gave you the misconception that I want to turn this into some kind of advertisement for Amsterdam, or for hotels and bars trying to reach "costumors". I was just using the Tourist Attractions section as an example as to how to make the article better. Also, I don't see any problem with having the VVV site there. It's not like the people who made www.amsterdam.nl don't want you to spend money in Amsterdam. So why don't you delete that too? Also, you can list tourist attractions without it being an advertisement for some company or other. As for making a separate page for Tourist Attractions, I like having all the information in one place, rather than spreading it out in to different pages. But that's just me. If you would like to create a page like that, go ahead. -Big Brother is Watching

Museums and 'things to do' in Amsterdam are mentioned in the text. No need to do more. chardon

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