Talk:Black tie

At Harvard in the 1960s, young men in dinner jackets seen during the late afternoon hastening towards an event would be hailed by ironic cries of "Check please!" -- I assume (after some thought) that this is because people thought they looked like waiters. The article doesn't mention waiters anywhere else, though, so it's not terribly clear: can someone clarify this within the article? Marnanel 22:43, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That is the impression I got. Many comedies seem to explore the subject. To me it has always seemed rather inappropriate to dress "servants" in a fashion that can be confused with guests'. --blades 18:39, May 8, 2004 (UTC)

G. K. Chesterton exploits this in his short story "The Queer Feet". The confusion should be eliminated by the supposition that anyone who is a guest will look unmistakably like a gentleman, whereas anyone who is a servant will not. Opera hat 13.36, 13 Sept. 2004 (BST)

Contents

1 "Cumberbund"? 2 "Highland regalia" 2.1 Reply 3 Changed - Alternate derived (presumably) definition of "cummerbund" to - Alternate definition (slang - SCUBA) of "cummerbund" 4 Photos 5 Fair use 6 D.J.

"Cumberbund"?

Introduced by an anon. user as an "alternative" spelling. Apparently this is a mishearing from a stratum where the cummerbund is considered an encumbrance. With equal sense we could add "alternative" spelling cummerbung and cummerbum. --Wetman 04:50, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Agreed. I've removed it from here and from the cummerbund page, the only two places in Wikipedia where it appeared. See the talk page for cummerbund for further justification. PeteVerdon 00:17, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Highland regalia"

"Kilts have become normal wear for formal occasions, for example being hired for weddings in much the same way as top hat and tails are in England or tuxedos across the pond, and can be worn by anyone regardless of nationality or descent. " A recipe for fools. One could with equal truth say that any coat-of-arms can be selected and painted on the doors of one's SUV, "by anyone regardless of nationality or descent." In such circles, it is thought quite witty when someone refers to the North Atlantic as "the pond". --Wetman 19:17, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Reply

Now, coat-of-arms are "issued" by varrious authorities, usually governmental in nature, but also from some other "real" authorities, like varrious royal houses, and religious authorities. They can be obtained by those that are acceptable, in some conditions, like military officers and accidemic educated.

The "kilt" can be worn by anyone with scottish heritage (including by marrage), or from a location with a tartan (Canada and each province has a tartan that would be appropriate to wear). Many organizations also have a tartan (wearing that as well is acceptable). The point is to wear an appropriate tartan. Wearing the tartan is accepting the leadership of that "clan." A mute point today. There are many approriate tartans to wear. A person form Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of the Admiral Cochrane to that country. Of course, if you have ever worn a kilt, the Government tartan is always appropriate. see link www.electricscotland.com/webclans/weartart.htm --User:Glenlarson

"A person from Chile would wear the Cochrane tartan, to recognize the great contribution of Admiral Cochrane to that country." Well, I live where Lorna Doone cookies are baked... But, which tartan would be appropriate if you were, say, from Vladivostok and stationed in Antarctica, one wonders... A "mute point" indeed! Similar fantasies encourage truly naive Americans to send away for "their" family crest-- say Smith-- and display it with pride to the gawping locals! The text remains in the article, what one calls "only a snare for geese."

—"I think we're all bozos on this bus." -Firesign Theater. --Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)--Wetman 01:47, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The original text was copied form the article titled kilt. Many may be upset at others wearing the kilt; however, Scottish culture has been spread around the world, including India and Pakistan, or any "British" Caribbean island, which have pipe bands. Few would think them of Scottish extraction, but they may be, and would have "right" to a kilt, regardless. They may even have a Scottish name!

One point of vies is but that, one. The talk page provides a forum for review, and yes many naive people do get "snared" ( see also Talk:Tartan). Don't know it is assumed I am a "Yank" but I do have more Scot blood than any other, all be it low land, but not the "name."

The reference for the assertion was provided. Do they live near?

Now white tie, was first what a Swed would wear to a wedding! --User:Glenlarson

A good definition of drag in its broadest sense is "a costume or outfit that while it carries symbolic significance, is being worn on occasions or in situations for which it was not originally intended". If I am invited to a wedding, rather than wear a kilt at random, I might with equal propriety— though my beard is silver— wear a hat covered in blue tulle roses, a modest string of pearls and "go as a duchess." --Wetman 06:13, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Not a contribution to the discussion, just restating your position. Indeed, some Scots may be upset with those wearing the kilt, but others are not. --User:Glenlarson

Fair enough. Not claiming to be "offended" is a mark of cultural maturity. --Wetman 02:49, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to take it out. It is as absurd to suggest that anyone can wear a kilt, except for fancy dress, as it is to suggest that a Irishman can reasonably attend a formal dinner in the full regalia of a native American chief. If you're not Scottish, preferably born in Scotland, you will look very foolish. Just because many people do, does not make it OK. Brentford 10:13, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Placed it back in, although the statement has been changed to read more of a fact statement. Again, many are doing this, and "accept" the Scottish culture. Most have some reason. Again, the original text is copied from the article titled kilt. Here the discussion is not concerned about this area but only what is worn under the kilt (regimental?). The statements here draw discussion; however, it needs to be resolved on the kilt page as well. Now, native Americian's do have a system for awarding title and thus "full regalia" to others, and it would be appropriate to wear such afterwards. People don't look foolish in this area when they wear the kilt, and good gentlemen accept their motivation for wearing the kilt, genetic, marriage, military service, or other. People are perhaps upset at the growing number of non tartan kilts being sold and worn by the youth; however, it is occuring, and although the kilt article does not have such reference (yet)(opps, ith artcle kilt does have this material). Simply deleting a fact is not acceptable in an encyclopedia.--User:Glenlarson

Put the text:

Kilts have become normal wear for formal occasions, for example being hired for weddings in much the same way as top hat and tails are in England or tuxedos across the pond, and the kilt is being worn by anyone regardless of nationality or descent.

back in. Everyone seams to want to delete it because they don't like it, but this text needs to be discusses on the article on kilts and resolved first, where they are not concerned about the statement but only what is worn under the kilt. Some other edits, monkey jacket replaced by Eaton style jacket. .--User:Glenlarson

Changed - Alternate derived (presumably) definition of "cummerbund" to - Alternate definition (slang - SCUBA) of "cummerbund"

Velcro wider type is called a cummerbund rather than a buckle closing waistband. -was moved to another page

Photos

I think this page has too many photos and I propose to edit them down. I don't think it's appropriate that people should put up photos of themselves or their friends, and we should perhaps only have photos of people notable for their style, etc., as well as a few images of 'alternative' forms of black tie. Andrew Yong 20:14, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Having the photos to use were first, friends just because they were, until other photos were found. The biggest problem with Wikipedia it the failure to ilistrate well the articles. --User:Glenlarson

Fair use

I've taken the FairUse pictures out of this article, as I don't see how fair use can apply here. Most are promotional material and such, which is fine for articles about their subjects, but not as illustrations for other subjects. See Wikipedia:Fair use. --W(t) 12:21, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

D.J.

I've just replaced the term "D.J." in the sentence describing the UK (and elsewhere in brackets) term for this dress. I see from the history that Wetman removed it last year, but he didn't really give much of an explanation. "D.J." is a common abbreviation in the UK (though slowly being replaced among young people who wouldn't normally wear one by "tux" from innumerable "prom" storylines in US TV programmes) so a more concrete objection is requested before deleting it again. Thanks. PeteVerdon 00:42, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)