Talk:British

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1 2002 discussion + one comment from 2004 2 2003 discussion 3 Britain (2004) 4 Summary and Question

2002 discussion + one comment from 2004

Is there any reason not to make this a redirect to Great Britain?

not as far as I can see Tarquin

shouldn't it be a redirect to Britain? or maybe United Kingdom, since it's mostly used for citizens of that country?

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Look at the links for this page (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=British) the vast majority of them are using British to indicate a citizen of the UK. I think this page should be redirected to United Kingdom instead of Great Britain Mintguy 03:35 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

Agreed. Done. -- Tarquin

I disagree - I just cannot stand to see the UK and Britain conflated. It's probably true that the majority of links to British refer to a UK citizen - that's probably because someone who is British is necessarily a UK citizen. There's nothing wrong with that - they're British too. But what happens when somebody says that George I was a British king, and clicking on British takes us to United Kingdom, which didn't exist at that time? I mean, why should somebody who makes a link to British want it to go to United Kingdom? Honestly, this change seems very bizarre to me. I'm changing it back so the redirect goes to Great Britain - if people are making links incorrectly, it's the links that need to be changed, not this redirect. --Camembert

The article on Great Britain describes the island of Great Britain. The article that describes the state that was Great Britain resides at United Kingdom, for goodness sake look at the links to this page. This page should redirect to United Kingdom. Mintguy 13:59 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

I have looked at the links page, but I don't see why that means we should pretend that "British" means "of the United Kingdom", which is very clearly does not. I repeat from above: if people are making links incorrectly, it's the links that need to be changed, not this redirect. And I paraphrase myself from below: what's wrong with saying somebody is British and having the link go to Great Britain? --Camembert

My Red Dice, look at the links to this page. There's no need to disambiguate. Mintguy

Sorry, didn't see this discussion page (wasn't expecting to see one on a redirect page, duh) - reverted now. -MRD

I've just realised I've taken both positions up there. My, that makes me look flighty! Given that many, many writers (from all over the word, including the Brits) will misues this word, maybe we should have this page as a disambiguation, that briefly explains what "British" SHOULD actually be used for. -- Tarquin 13:35 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

Maybe, though I don't begrudge the person who'll have to fix all the links pointing here! And really, is it such a big problem? Saying that Michael Caine, for example, is British, and linking it to Great Britain (which is the sort of thing links pointing here do) isn't a misuse of "British" or a bad link, after all (I mean, he is from Great Britain). Saying somebody from Ireland is British would be bad, of course, but nobody seems to be doing that. So I guess I don't really see the problem with things as they now are. Maybe United Kingdom could be mentioned and linked a bit more prominently in the Great Britain article though (like in the first paragraph) - that might be an improvement. --Camembert

This is an interminable discussion: one round finishes and the redirection is set up in such a way, then a few months later someone will reopen the issue by changing it to how they think it should be. Personally I think British should redirect to Britain, since the two words are related. See Talk:Britain. See also America for how the issue is handled there.

Well, Britain redirects to Great Britain, so the current set up is how you suggest. --Camembert

It's not too bad, but Britain/British often refer to the UK, so making Britain a stub is logical.

The situation is now ludicrous. British redirects to Great Britain which is about the island and is completely wrong for the majority of the links. Mintguy

Why is it "completely wrong for the majority of the links"? As far as I can see, the majority (indeed, all) of the links are referring to something of the island (they're referring to something of the country as well, of course, but that doesn't make a link to the island wrong, does it?). --Camembert

Ok here's an example... Duke of Wellington? British? Yes of Course. Only he was born in Ireland. One more what about History of Guernsey - "The islands were the only British soil occupied by German troops in World War II" - Only Guernsy isn't Great Britain or even the British Isles as such. Mintguy

As I've already said twice - if people are making links incorrectly, it's the links that need to be changed, not this redirect. And here's a counter example - people prior to 1801 might be described as "British" quite accurately - but making a link from them to "United Kingdom" wouldn't make much sense, because the UK didn't exist at that time. --Camembert

Well you would want to link such articles to United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland perhaps? Mintguy

If the article was relevant to that time frame (which my example was not - I said prior to 1801, while that state was in existence between 1801 and the 1920s), then maybe. I don't want to get involved with that, though - my main point is simply that "British" means "of Britain" and so should redirect to Great Britain. --Camembert

Perhaps a dictionary or two will help here:

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913

British \Brit"ish\, n. pl.
  People of Great Britain.

British \Brit"ish\ (br[i^]t"[i^]sh), a. [AS. Brittisc,
  Bryttisc.]
  Of or pertaining to Great Britain or to its inhabitants; --
  sometimes restricted to the original inhabitants.

WordNet (r) 1.7

British
    adj : of or relating to or characteristic of Great Britain or its
          people or culture; "his wife is British" [syn: British]
    n : the people of Great Britain [syn: British, British people,
         the British, Brits]

I vote for Great Britain. This is what comes to mind for me. --mav 14:19 Dec 28, 2002 (UTC)

No disrepsect Mav, but for most Americans Britain/UK/England are synonymous, so your opinion on this hold little weight with me. Mintguy

Oh yeah, I forgot I am just a stupid American whose opinion doesn't matter at all. Thanks for reminding me. --mav

I'm sorry. As I said no disrespect intended. It's a generalisation but one which I encountered many times myself when working in the US.Mintguy

I've always thought of my fellow Wikipedians as some of the smartest people from their respective countries. Your statement, however, indicates that you don't share this view. --mav

I'm digging myself a hole here which is not something I was planning to do so I'll try to make my statement clearer. I do not think Americans are dumb, and I do not think that you are dumb and I do not think that Wikipedians in general are dumb. I was just pointing out that for a number of Americans (and in my limited experience) the difference between Britain, the British Isles, the United Kingdom, and England isn't clear as it might be to a native. Just as the difference between Kansas and Arkansas (or any other ambiguity for which I am unqualified to speak upon) might be to a native of my country. Mintguy

OK I'm sorry for being so defensive. --mav

Mintguy - I too am troubled by people who make no distinction between Britain and the UK - that's why it troubles me so much that you seem to be advocating that very lack of distinction. "Britain", as the above cited dictionaries say, means "of Great Britain". It doesn't mean "of the UK" (and I just checked a couple of British dictionaries which say the same thing, if that convinces you any further). In my view, the redirect should reflect this. --Camembert

Same as America -> United States then, not? Where would somebody want to go if they clicked on a British link? Probably to United Kingdom. But I think it would be no problem to send them to a Britain page that explains the various usages, since they are still only one click away from UK.

Yes, I can see your point there - I think the best way to deal with it, though, it to make the link to United Kingdom on the Great Britain page more prominent - that way, people who want the UK are still only a click away, and they (and everybody else) also gets some useful information without any extra clicks. I wouldn't object to a disambig page at Britain, it just seems to me that this is a more graceful way of acheiving the same thing. --Camembert

Please don't make a disambiguation block. Just state that the UK is located on the Island on the first line. --mav

Ironically (given the above discussion) that is wrong. The UK is (currently) Great Britain + Northern Ireland Rich Farmbrough

Oh yes, that's what I meant. And that, indeed, is what I've just done :) --Camembert

Well I just looked at French and German and they disambiguate, so maybe the disambiguation for British should be there after all. I don't agree bu the precendent for disambiguation seems to already exist. Mintguy

French and German are also languages in addition to nationalities (two fairly different things). British is an adjective or noun that refers to a geographic location. I would support disambiguation at British only if this word is also used to refer to people/things in the British Isles often enough to cause an ambiguity issue. If that is the case then perhaps an disambiguation article like American or virus is in order (then it wouldn't really be necessary to fix all the links). --mav

The precedent exists because French and German might mean the language as well as something of the countries. This isn't such an issue with "British" because the language is called "English" (which is indeed a disambiguation page). It's true that there's a distinction to be made twixt "British English" and "American English", but I think that's such an unusual use of the word "British" that it doesn't need disambiguating against - people will be careful enough to link it to British English directly, I should think. --Camembert

2003 discussion

I have reverted the page to Martin's disambiguation page of 25 Dec 2002. This is because the term is ambiguous. Is any other reason required to make a disambiguation page? When applied to living people, the term almost always refers to their nationality. My nationality is "British"; this means "of the United Kingdom", not "of Britain". However, in a historical context, especially when talking about times before there even was a United Kingdom, it often just means the island of Great Britain. -- Oliver P. 02:31 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Oh, I see... Britain is now a page which explains the differences in usage. Hmm, I'm not sure about this, though. "British" is the standard term for someone from the United Kingdom, and is not only used by people who call the United Kingdom "Britain". I think this page should probably contain a brief explanation of this, but I'm off to bed, so I'll leave it to somebody else... -- Oliver P. 02:38 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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In response to change commentary:

02:27 7 Jul 2003 . . Oliver Pereira (No, it doesn't just mean "of Britain", that's what I was trying to explain on the talk page...)

I don't get it. Surely it does just mean "of Britain", but implies different things, e.g. the land of Britain, the nation of Britian, the language of Britain? Not that it's a problem.

BTW, the on-line Websters says that (to Americans) "British" is a noun, meaning "the British language" (like "French"), so I dropped the description "adjective". Andy G 18:37 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Okay, the word "adjective" was a bit pointless there, so removing it is fine. And sorry for getting the wrong Act of Union! I must have got a bit confused there. As for the nationality thing, "British" means "of the nation of Britain" only if you call the United Kingdom "the nation of Britain". Which I don't think many people do! It does, after all, include Northern Ireland, which is not part of "Britain" by most people's definition, as far as I am aware. Maybe we should find some people from Northern Ireland and ask them whether they consider themselves (a) to be British, and (b) to come from Britain. If anyone answers "yes" to one but "no" to the other, that would prove that we can't just say that they are the same thing. -- Oliver P. 11:59 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

"Britain" is used so variously that the word often does include NI (e.g. "Britain may join the Euro" is a commonplace phrase, even if arguably incorrect). But I guess you're right - the meaning of "British" isn't so much "of Britain" as "associated with Britain". After all, not all Irish bars are in Ireland. Andy G 18:29 8 Jul 2003 (UTC)

So, who volunteers to fix all the redirects? ;-) Martin

Not me. Seriously, though, I think this is different from other redirect pages: "British" is inherrently ambiguous, whereas e.g. "Cowley" (London/Oxford/Wyoming) is a name that is used in a clear way for several separate places. If an article uses "Britain" where "UK" or "GB" are clearly meant, it should really be fixed regardless of what we do on this page. Andy G 17:12 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Britain (2004)

Read the article at Britain. It already incorporates the definition of British and is far more extensive than this. I will merge and redirect. --Jiang 23:32, 4 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I just came to this page and found views that are at variance with the meanings, understandings and usages of the word that I and others who live in the various countries use the term. Yes, outside the wales/ireland/scotland/england area people use the titles as alternatives (and it is irrelevant in this instance what a US-based dictionary states) but in an 'internal' sense the terminology matters; a little to some and a great deal to others. I shall join in the hunt for links and disambiguations! --VampWillow 01:00, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Summary and Question

This page could be (and probably has been) a redirect to:

• United Kingdom - but that's wrong because it's only existed recently whereas Britishness has existed for a long time.
• Great Britain - but that excludes Ireland, and possibly other territories not on the mainland.
• Britain - which should be OK because it explains the usage of the word and points to all the other entities. In particular it points the the various United Kingdms that have existed, so a reference to British in the context of the Royal Navy would be cover the whole era.

Or we could leave it as a disambiguation, replicating the data on [[Britain]] , or of course make it into a full article about Britishness.

What do the team think this year? Rich Farmbrough 21:28, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's not a true disambiguation page like most others i.e. a page redirecting people to other aritlces. It's a in itself description of the various meanining of the word British. It should remain as it is. Note that this is a different opinion to the one I had about 2 years ago above. Mintguy (T)

Should we then perhaps remove the diambig tag? Rich Farmbrough 23:25, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Note that I disambiguated British recently, there's already a load more links.... Rich Farmbrough 10:57, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)