Talk:Chechnya

Contents

1 FSB agents? true or rumor? 2 One revertion, two and more edits, to be correct, Dear gene S and Dr Bug 3 Dear Disputants 4 Why the heck no country recognised Chechnya independence ? 5 Order of names. 6 Request for older history 7 Bug in population report 8 History Updated 9 1956-1991 10 1956-1991 11 POV

FSB agents? true or rumor?

What about that line concerning FSB agents planting bombs? Is there any real evidence or is this just based on rumor? I would really like to know the truth, and not suspicions. --G

One revertion, two and more edits, to be correct, Dear gene S and Dr Bug

Gene S, you've reverted twice today at leat. Yours third time is near. I've done it only once, and I've just edited as present.--BIR 13:19, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dear Disputants

I DO NOT hate Russia, Russians etc. as I stated before. I ONLY OPPOSE MOST SRTONGLY this sily waste of human lives, resources etc., thrown away just for nothing, which were needed to restore post-Soviet life decently everywhere else! OK ?--BIR 13:48, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You seem to miss a simple fact. This is Encyclodedia. This is NOT a political forum. It should report facts, not emotions. --Gene s 13:53, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And I will continue to do it persistently up to a high extent even if we fell in a edit war I, II, III etc.--BIR 13:48, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, instead of violating the WP:3RR, you may want to appeal to the arbitration committee. So far, you are not proving any evidence which supports your views. --Gene s 13:53, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dear BIR, could you please get more deep knowledge on the topic first? Just three facts to mention: 1. Dudaev declared independence before the USSR dissolved. 2. Chechen-Ingush ASSR was not a republic of Soviet Union, but a republic of Russian SFSR. 3. There were at least two powers in Chechnya in 1991, and most Chechen leaders didn't declare independence. I don't oppose to academic facts sounding anti-Russian. But, sorry, I definitely oppose what I consider ignorance, including anti-Russian one. Dr Bug  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Drbug&action=edit&section=new) (Volodymyr V. Medeiko) 14:01, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for details.

Really, the SU was complicated by its structures. The countries were incorporated in two circles; several national areas and republics within Russia inherited from the Czars, and the enlargened one including other Soviet republics. This unification of these both was called the SU. Then there was third circle, namely, the Warsaw pact...--BIR 13:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Looks like you are trying to write your own version of the history of the USSR. You may want to visit the page History of Russia instead.

Hi again ! I think you mean the history of the SU, or however you like to call it.--BIR 14:21, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You seem to believe that there was a difference between the Soviet Union and the USSR. Please do explain the difference.

It's not "however I like to call it". It's the official country name.

So, also recent Georgia, which also belonged to the Czars, was a soviet republic similar to the Baltic ones, which also belonged to the Czars, equal to the Russian Soviet republic - in theory, at least. --BIR 13:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It seems exceptionally difficult for you to stay focused on the topic. Please do try. This is the Chechnya talk page. The Georgia talk page is at Talk:Georgia (country).

I am focused. The cricis underway are inherited from the SU structures.--BIR 14:27, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, if you are focused, then why are you talking about Georgia (country) on Chechnya talk page? Also, please translate the word cricis for me. Thank you.

Well, crisis is, crises are. Excuse me my un(der)qualified s, but stay rather qualified or unqualified as you wish.--BIR 07:13, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BTW., Georgia is included occasionally in the crisis (thank you again for your kind one s) in the form of Pankisi refugees, as you surely know.--BIR 07:13, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

In that sense, the ChRI seeked a separation from Russia by way of 1991 independence declaration, and that was finally granted de-facto by the 1997 peace treaty (regardless how early and where the ChRI separated exactly from), which was then dissolved in August and September, 1999.--BIR 13:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

granted de-facto is an oxymoron. It's either granted, or de facto. Not both.

As far I remember, it was you who admitted that the ChRI was de-facto independent, but ok. she was de-jure independet. Anyway, she was independet before the status was dissolved somehow, someway de-facto as I am told by you.--BIR 14:27, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Please try to read and comprehend. It is not difficult. The statement "was de fact independent" is correct. The statement "granted de facto independence" is an oxymoron. I used the correct wording. You used the oxymoron. And no, Ichkeria was never de jure independent.

Maybe not. It's an aerial term, but the ChRI was and she never gave up that status.--BIR 07:13, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

By the way, what were the legal grounds if the de-facto independence ought to be regarded as dissolved ? Did it happen only by the means of brute force ?--BIR 13:42, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You seem to be having difficulty with understanding the difference between de facto and de jure again. De facto by definition means that it does not have legal grounds. --Gene s 14:06, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why the heck no country recognised Chechnya independence ?

http://www.cc.jyu.fi/~aphamala/pe/2004/chechen_ind.htm

The Eurasian Politician - July 2004 The Chechen struggle for independence by David Storobin, July 15, 2004

---

" In 1991, as the USSR was collapsing, Chechen President Jokhar Dudayev declared Chechnya an independent nation, following the example of the 14 Republics (Baltic States, Central Asian states, etc.) that gained independence from Moscow around the same time. Russian President Boris Yeltsin and Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev refused to recognize Chechen independence. Indeed, no country in the world recognized independent Chechnya.

The main reason for the discriminative treatment of different independence declarations lied in the Soviet hierarchy of different regions: the international community decided to recognize those who had the Socialist Soviet Republic (SSR) status in the USSR (including Russia itself), while those with Autonomous Socialist Soviet Republic (ASSR) status were not recognized. While the SSR's were theoretically (but not practically) semi-sovereign under the Soviet rule, the ASSR's were part of SSR's. The result was that some Central Asian republics became independent with reluctance, while some smaller but eagerly independence-minded republics (mainly Chechnya and Dagestan, but also Tatarstan and Tuva) had to choose between surrendering their nationhood or starting active resistance. Only the Chechens chose the latter."

---

The ChRI obtained de-facto independence, but then the others countries didn't quite see it.--BIR 07:38, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Order of names.

Dear TimWiki,

I'm sure that 1.Russian-2.Chechen is a right order due to the following reasons: 1. The most used references (i.e. of most interest) should be put first. 2. Chechen Republic is a constituent part of Russian Federation, and Russian is a first language used within the territory. 3. Constitution of Chechen Republic uses this order.

Dr Bug  (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Drbug&action=edit&section=new) (Volodymyr V. Medeiko) 13:51, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Request for older history

The article is crying out for older history - surely the history of Chechnya goes back further than 1859. Tempshill 06:21, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Bug in population report

Rural population: 730 thousands is not 57,5% of 1,103 thousands, it is 66% approximately. (Urban population quantities also have such bug.)

I do not know, what quantity (absolute or relative) is correct, so I only report this big, not fix it.

Thanks for catching that! It's all my fault—I forgot to update percentages when copypasting the layout from a different article. It's fixed now (absolute numbers were correct).—Ëzhiki (erinaceus europeaus) 16:00, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

History Updated

I have updated the history section, if anyone has problems with it please let me know. I've done my best to keep bias out and have tried not to select one argument over the other, but to place both sides' positions and beliefs on the table. I also updated the book list with some additional titles by British, Russian, and American authors. If there is too much on Russia itself please feel free to let me know and/or remove it.

--Seanmullan 16:15, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1956-1991

If there was no war, this does not mean the period should not be covered at all. Just say all was OK 1956-1991.

Added information for that period in history and also updated the politics section to include latest post-Maskhadov developments --Seanmullan 09:53, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

1956-1991

Is the deportation of Chechens mentioned?

I thought so -- read over it again? --Seanmullan 21:55, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyone know the political parties of the leaders of Ichkeria??

POV

Removing POV

Lapsed Pacifist 21:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Before removing NPOV tag elaborate on the reasons behind the changes you've made (Fisenko 04:42, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC))

I am happy to leave the tag where it is. I am not happy with the manner in which the article is currently slanted.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:48, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What exact statements cause your unhappiness ? (Fisenko 01:35, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC))

The article reads like a Russian government press release. More balance is needed.

Lapsed Pacifist 02:01, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On the contrary in my opinion some sections of the article look like they were copied from kavkaz.org or some other Chechen terrorist propaganda site. If you intent to make any more changes aimed to increase its pro-separatist bias, please be ready to provide arguments and neutral sources, not just statements like "it reads like Russian government press release". (Fisenko 03:42, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC))

What sections in particular? I was unable to find any terrorist propaganda. Perhaps you could point it out for me.

Lapsed Pacifist 00:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sections you recently edited in particular. Anyway, my questions was first, explain what exact statments you consider biased or not neutral before you make any edits. (Fisenko 05:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC))

I was clarifing some very vague statements, and I have difficulty understanding why some of my additions were reverted. Why "various armed groups" instead of "armed separatist groups"? The edits on discrimination are POV. Was the anarchy in Chechnya fomented (at least in part) by Moscow factions, or not? "Terrorism" is POV. The referendum description was changed from "all-Chechnya" to "all-Chechen". Why? Were ethnic Russians not allowed to vote? Other grammar and syntax corrections I made were changed.

Lapsed Pacifist 01:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)