Talk:Chimpanzee

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Does the god Pan have anything to do with the genus Pan?--Jondel 07:47, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Hrm..... That's a very good question, and I don't know. I'm also on vacation and my literature is at home.... so I'll check when I'm back in about 2 wweeks. - UtherSRG 04:44, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I think it comes from the meaning all, or all encompassing, e.g., panorama, pantheistic, pandemic, etc. Although I could be completely off base. Pan is a very common word in many languages. Dustin Asby 01:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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UtherSRG:

Begging your pardon, I don't understand the nature of your reorganization of Chimpanzee and Common Chimpanzee. The section on Basic Facts is clearly relevant only to common chimpanzees; if you look at the page on Bonobos, you will note that their dietary habits, habitat, and social structure are quite different from that which is described in this section. Similarly, the section on the Chimpanzee Genome Project deals only with Pan troglodytes; it is their genome which is being sequenced, so the section is far more relevant to common chimpanzees than the entire genus. The proper place of the article comparing and contrasting common chimps and bonobos is more debatable, but I think it makes sense to put it in the chimpanzee article, as it deals with both common chimps and bonobos, rather than the common chimp article, in which the part of it relevant to common chimps is elaborated upon anyway. Would you care to explain your reasoning for changing this?

Didactohedron 17:38, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

Yup I see that now. I think it's best to make clarifications wherever they may be needed. That seems to be on both the chimpanzee and Common Chimpanzee pages. I've made adjustments to the pages that hopefully reflect our common understandings. - UtherSRG 05:49, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for understanding. Still, I think that my last revisions are clearer than the current version. Quoting both versions of the first paragraph of Common Chimpanzee:

• Current revision: The Common Chimpanzee (Pan troglodytes) is a great ape. It is often called the chimpanzee (or more colloquially chimp), a term which can also be used in a broader sense to refer to both the Common Chimpanzee and the closely-related Bonobo, or Pygmy Chimpanzee, which was not recognized as an independent species until quite recently.
• My last revision: The word "chimpanzee" properly refers to both species of the genus Pan; in colloquial usage, however, "chimpanzee" (or "chimp") often refers to the Common Chimpanzee, Pan troglodytes, while "Bonobo" refers to the other member of the genus, Pan Paniscus, the "pygmy chimpanzee". In the interest of brevity, this article will use "chimpanzee" to refer only to the common chimpanzee.

My revision then sticks to this usage of "chimpanzee" consistently throughout the entire article, while the current revision is inconsistent. In my opinion, my version is more clear. What do you think? - Didactohedron 06:39, Jun 29, 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life standard for species articles is to have the common name (in bold) of the species in the first sentence, followed by the binomial name (in parenthesis and italics). Your version breaks from that standard. In fact, all articles should have the article name (in bold) in the first sentence and preferably close to te start of the sentence. I believe my verion keeps to the standard and gives adequate clarification. (I'm sure, though, that my version could still be tweaked for word choice and smoothness.) Also, it's better in scientific articles to keep to the scientific or official common names, while in colloquial articles it is more acceptable to use the more colloquial names. Hence my edits of "chimpanzee" to "Common Chimpanzee". I will endeavor to add some smoothness to my version of the text. - UtherSRG 20:58, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining- I wasn't aware of the standard. Still, might it not be better to use "chimpanzee" to refer to the common common chimpanzee in the Common Chimpanzee article? There is, after all, something to be said for brevity. I edited the article to use "common chimpanzee" in every instance where it was applicable, and the text came out sounding rather awkward. I would think that it would be sufficient to explain that "common chimpanzee" is the correct usage and that the article only uses "chimpanzee" in the interest of brevity, but if you disagree I will leave it as it is. - Didactohedron 02:18, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

Thank you for bearing with me. I know I can be a little overbearing, especially when I'm dealing with standardization matters that have been settled and re-settled, etc. Also, I've fixed the capitalizations... common species names, especially for mammals and birds, get capitalized to avoid phrases like "... there is sometimes the rare common chimpanzee..." or "... the common chimpanzee in Xxxia is the bonobo." Otherwise, thanks for continuing to contribute! *grins* - UtherSRG 04:52, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I suspected that there was some standard concerning capitalization, but I was thrown off by the fact that the capitalization in the last revision prior to my first was inconsistent (not to mentioned used the highly-scientific "chimp" in some places). I suppose that if the final effect of my contributions is to enforce consistency by making everything consistently different from what I intended, then that's better than nothing. Heh, with all these standards one might almost think that this is a real encyclopedia... :) -Didactohedron 05:39, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

I strongly feel that the information in this article should be moved back to Pan (biology), and that the information currently at Common Chimpanzee should be moved back to Chimpanzee. A look at Onelook (http://www.onelook.com/?w=chimpanzee&ls=a) shows that the preferred definition of "chimpanzee" is Pan troglodytes. Mackerm 16:58, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why do you thihnk Onelook is a reference that should override scientific literature as to what the formal common name of an organism is? I based my reorganization on published scientific information. - UtherSRG 19:41, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Because I'd expect scientific literature to focus on scientific terminology, i.e. Latin. Since Wikipedia uses English common names for many animals, we should find out what professional Linguists say. Looking up "chimpanzee" in Onelook gets 21 different dictionary hits. Looking up "common chimpanzee" gets zero. This indicates to me that "common" is being used here as an adjective, not a part of the animal's name. Cf. "Black Widow" or "Red-tailed Hawk". Mackerm 02:30, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cf. Common Buzzard, Common Pochard, Common Eider, etc. Just a smattering of other names where "Common" is not simply an adjective. Your follow up to this would be that those names get hits. And on that you would be correct. However, names start someplace. The split of the name "Common Chimpanzee" is definitely a recent split, reflecting the acknowledgement that Bonobos and Common Chimpanzees and distinct species, while also recognizing that both species are chimpanzees. Unfortunately I can't make a more pressing case, as Groves doesn't mention anything about common naming, he only lists the common names.

The obvious problem is that since perhaps the mid-1700s, people have been writing about the characteristics of "chimpanzees" with one certain species in mind. If the primary definition of "chimpanzee" is made to refer to two species, it will cause confusion. Mackerm 01:38, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)

People adjust. The Bonobo has only been identified since 1929. This was primarily in the scientific literature only. More recently it has moved into the more public arena of discourse. Certainly it takes time for everything to catch up. UtherSRG 02:29, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Many people don't take the effort to adjust. What is the harm in uniting this with Pan and having "chimp" and "chimpanzee" redirect to pan? Dustin Asby 01:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Poll 1.1 Comments 1.2 Results 2 Species 3 chimpanzee cultures 4 taxonomic relationship 5 The native chimp of America

Poll

Should the page Chimpanzee describe the species Pan troglodytes or should it describe the genus Pan? Poll ends August 1.

Option 1: the page Chimpanzee describes the genus Pan.

1. UtherSRG 02:15, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)
2. Didactohedron 02:59, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)
3. MNeutrality
4. Tannin 07:04, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC) Note: I'm very pushed for time these days and don't pretend to have read all the relevant discussion. Nevertheless, on the face of things, it would seem sensible to have one article about the genus, and two other articles about the species contained within in. That seems to be what we have at present. Is there any reason not to do it this way? A quick scan of the discussion above doesn't seem to offer one. (But I'm open to persuasion on this, and will change my vote if it seems appropriate.)

Option 2: the page Chimpanzee describes the species Pan troglodytes.

1. Mackerm 02:19, 16 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Comments

I'd prefer to stick with the poll options as originally phrased. They have problems, but so does the rewrite. Pan (biology) admittedly isn't a very elegant title, but there are other possibilities. And while I dislike using the Chimpanzee page to describe the genus, I really disagree with the title Common Chimpanzee for the species. If this poll ends the way it's been going, my second choice would be to list Pan troglodytes under its scientific name. Comments, anyone? Mackerm 15:18, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If common usage is that Pan troglodytes is known as the Common Chimpanzee, then the first of these two poll options is what we should choose. I don't really see how this is poll material-- it's about determining what's common usage and reflecting that here. Personally, I would far prefer the second option, but it isn't my (or anyone else's here) decision. In any case, I do not actually know what the common usage is, and will refrain from voting. Yath 04:14, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree, it's not a timed Wikipedia agregate that should decide these things. I think a simple search on Google comparing hits will work fine. Dustin Asby 01:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Clarification for Tannin, et al - There were 3 articles (1 genus, 2 species) before: "Pan (biology)", "Chimpanzee", and "Bonobo". I moved them around to be (in the same order): "Chimpanzee", "Common Chimpanzee", and "Bonobo". - UtherSRG 15:34, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why did you move Pan to Chimpanzee instead of Chimpanzee to Pan? Wouldn't it make sense for Wikipedia to have information on every Genus based off of the scientific name? Uniformity is key. Dustin Asby 01:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Welcome! Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life comes into play here. One of the standards the project sets out (in accordance with other Wikipolicy) is that, when possible, article names should be the common name for the grouping of creatures. So since Pan is the genus for both species of "chimpanzee", the article is at Chimpanzee. This is because one is more likely to search for "chimpanzee" than one is to search for "Pan", Greek mythology not withstanding. - UtherSRG 02:36, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Results

It would appear that we keep things as they are. - UtherSRG 13:06, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Jared Diamond argues pretty convincingly for Homo troglodytes and Homo paniscus. :-) Evertype 23:09, 2005 Apr 3 (UTC)

True. :) - UtherSRG 22:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

If he believes Homo = Pan, then logically he ought also to believe Homo = Australopithecus = Parathropus = Sahelanthropus = Ardipithecus = ... This seems like the suppression of a lot of detail. Gdr 21:51, 2005 May 25 (UTC)

Perhaps, or perhaps those need to be subgenera or species groups. *shrugs* All taxa rnkings are somewhat arbitrary to begin with. - UtherSRG 22:33, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

Species

I reverted your assertion that at 97% similarity of DNA, two organisms are regarded as the same species. This is not true and appears nowhere in the species article. - UtherSRG 02:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

chimpanzee cultures

I am not an expert, but I have heard of a study published in Nature, which recognized about 40 different chimpanzee cultures (classified by various behavior, use of tools etc.) It should be mentioned, because it's exceptional among animals.

Find the source and metion it. - UtherSRG 15:10, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

Some recent work on chimp culture [1] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15540148),[2] (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15540148) JWSchmidt 16:27, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Be bold and edit the article! - UtherSRG 17:46, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

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I belive it said same GENUS, not species...

taxonomic relationship

Removed from article (added by an anon):

"In addition, humans and chimps cannot form offspring, as would be expected if they really were in the same genus, like horses and donkeys, or lions and tigers."

This is a fallacious argument. If it were so that chimps and humans could interbreed, that would be a strong indication that they are in the same genus. However, there are plenty of species assigned properly to the same genus that can not interbreed. An equivalent is: "If it rains, then the grass is wet. The grass is wet, therefor it must have rained." This is fallacious. Someone may have turned on a sprinkler, causing the grass to be wet. - UtherSRG 20:28, May 25, 2005 (UTC)

The native chimp of America

Chimpanzee, often abbreviated to chimp, is the common name for two species in the genus Pan. The best known chimpanzee is Pan troglodytes, the Common Chimpanzee, living in West and Central Africa. Its cousin, the Bonobo or Pygmy Chimpanzee (Pan paniscus), is found in the forests of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. The boundary between the two species is formed by the Congo River.

Another variant of chimp is found in the White House. Someone please include a photo of his american subspecie on this page!

Har har. - UtherSRG 12:16, May 27, 2005 (UTC)