Talk:Indo-Greek Kingdom
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Why is "Greco-Indians" more grammatically correct? -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 16:01, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Hi Kukkurovaca. Because, as in "Franco-canadian", "African-American" , "Indo-European" etc..., the area of origin usually comes first, and the area of arrival comes second. Maybe it should be expressed differently... not a grammatical rule, but rather a convention? User:PHG
Hi!
I - Sponsianus - contributed some stuff to the Indo-Greek pages a year ago and now I have come back. I hope nobody is offended, but I have made some major changes. There are lots of references to kings being related to each other on this page. No less than three kings are considered brothers of Demetrius, Demetrius II is a son of Demetrius I, Agathocleia is a daughter, and Eucratides defeats several kings, etc.
However, these are only speculations. Not one single line is preserved considering the Euthydemid kings after Demetrius I, and Eucratides is only known to have defeated one Indian king Demetrius and that is described as something happening late in his reign, probably as late as the 150s. That is all we know. IMHO, we cannot present speculations as fact.
Further, there are a lot of references to Buddhism which are similarly very loosely based. There are few coins where Menandros associates himself with Buddhism, and Demetrius I certainly wasn't a Buddhist. There were lots of religions in the area at that time, and only because Buddhism has survived to this day and the others have not does not mean we should interpret all uncertain symbols - like elephants, clearly an ubiqitous symbol in India - to the Buddhist faith. I look forward to discussion if anybody disagrees with me. I am not attempting to destroy the works of others.
Best Regards Sponsianus
- Hi Sponsianus. Added Indo-Greek coins with eight-spoked wheels for reference. The relationships between the kings are indeed poorly documented, and are essentially deducted from numismatic clues. I suggest we adopt the most recent interpretations (those of Bopearachchi, 1991, CNRS) for the article, which will bring some adjustment to the last kings especially and bring the last dates for Indo-Greek king to around 10 CE. I will do this when I can find some time. Regards.PHG 21:19, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Hi PHG! Those coins are indeed clear Buddhist symbols and make a proper addition. I am however not certain of the end-date 10 CE. I have enquired about this on the Seleukid Yahoo Group and it seems the date is an old mistake: 10 CE does in fact refer to the embassy of an Indian king Porus to Augustus, as mentioned by Strabo. But we have no proof this Porus was a Greek king, only that his ambassador spoke Greek. And furthermore, the name Porus might be a mix-up as well: it's the same name as the king Alexander the Great defeated.
I have a question about king Strato I: He is generally said to be grand-father of Strato II, and http://www.snible.org/coins/hn/bactria.html credits this to a Kharoshti inscription. Such a genealogy would however give the reign of Strato I a span of several decades, especially since he started his rule in his minority. A reign of 130-110 BCE is simply way to short for his grandson to grow up and co-rule with him.
However, the dates for the reign of Strato II is out on a limb the other way around. Starting his co-rule in the 110s BCE, his own reign is said to start in 25 BCE, (which further shows the impossibility of such late dates)! Something is peculiar about these two kings, but what?
a) The Kharoshti inscription is misinterpreted. They were father and son (as the Greek inscription on their coin indeed indicates by calling Strato II "Philopator" ). Strato II starts his reign around 110 BCE. b) The coins with both kings is a pedigree issue, and Strato II never ruled with his grand-father. In this case, he ruled later, possibly about 60-50 BCE.
Finally: Who is Thrason, the one you just added? A recently found coin? Very interested to know. I shall try to add Platon to the page, the son and possible assassin of Eukratides.
- Hi.
- All dates have now been taken from the most recent and authoritative study on the subject, by Bopearachchi. The end date of 10 CE is supported by metallurgical analysis showing a general debasement of silver currency (with an almost complete replacement of silver by bronze) during the reigns of Azes II, Rajuvula and Strato II. Also, the mint marks of Straton II and identical with those if Rajuvula, which makes them almost contemporary in the mint mark sequences. True, previous studies estimated end dates around 50 BCE. There are also a few overstrikes which support the new date.
- Bopearachchi disconnect the two kings Strato I and Strato II. They are very far in every respect (style, mints etc...). The "Philopapator" inscription is related to a third Strato, son of Strato II, who could be called Strato III, except for the fact that he apparently never reigned alone.
- One coin of a king Thrason was discovered in 1982 by R.C. Senior. I haven't seen a coin of him, but his style is said to be similar to that of Menander I.His title is described as "Megas".
- Plato is located in the Greco-Bactrian article.
- Regards PHG 12:41, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Hi! Thank you for this useful info! I knew the there was a missing link among the Strato kings. There is no contradiction as for Strato III being either son or grand-son of II. Do you know the best place to order Bopearachi's study?
And two final question: a)Do you know of the evidence for the reign (and existence) of Antimachus II? Is he the king mention on the tax-receipt, or on an inscription with Strato I? I have not been able to get proper info on this. b) What is your opinion on the dynasties - Eucratids and Euthydemids? Did they survive Heliocles / Demetrius II? Several coins resemble the early kings, but many late kings strike coins of both Eukratides/Antimachos/Menandros profiles. IMHO, the constant flux of royal names speak against the dynasties.
- Hi. The Bopearachchi book is available at www.amazon.fr (ISBN 2717718257). Beware, it's in French, but very well informed, with a huge amount of coin pictures. a) For Antimachus II, I only know of numismatic clues, that put him right before Menander. b) For the house of Eucratides, the best markers are the Dioscuri symbol of Eucratides, either represented on their horses, standing, or just through their caps. Antialcidas, Diomedes, Archebios all used the Dioscuri symbolism on some of their coins, which are also consistent in style with the western Indo-Greek kings. For the house of Euthydemids, the Herakles symbolism is used very late, and relayed by the Athena symbolism of Menander. PHG 23:15, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Hi again! I believe the geographic denotions are somewhat unclear (even though this might only reflect our lack of knowledge. But the fact is that the kings of Eastern Punjab are lacking between Demetrios III (100 BCE) and Apollodotus II (80 BCE). Should the text be interpreted such that the kings located as reigning in Gandhara during this period, for instance Philoxenus and Peucolaus, are reigning even to the east? Or was there a long interregnum? Finally, Arachosia is used in IMHO conflicting contexts, and the borders between Paropamisadae, Gandhara and Punjab are overlapping. Taxila is a city in both Gandhara and Punjab according to Wikipedia definitions. The king Antialcidas is said in his article to have reigned there, yet he is listed in the main article as king in Parapomisadae and Arachosia! So in fact, Taxilan kings are in three different places.
Would it be a good idea to work out a map with non-conflicting definitions of the areas and relocate the kings accordingly? Best Regards User:Sponsianus