Talk:Ismaili
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General
All info prior to 2 Aug 2003 (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Ismaili&oldid=1300704) has been completely replaced on 16 Aug 2003 by 171.67.88.19. I don't know how to merge them. --Menchi 01:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
That version was a copy from http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/i/ismaili.htm, so I reverted to the 2 Aug version. RickK 01:31, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There is a factual error. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad not his nephew. The later part is corect that Ali was married to Muhammad's daughter Fatima
All info prior to 2 Aug 2003 (http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Ismaili&oldid=1300704) has been completely replaced on 16 Aug 2003 by 171.67.88.19. I don't know how to merge them. --Menchi 01:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
That version was a copy from http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/i/ismaili.htm, so I reverted to the 2 Aug version. RickK 01:31, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There is a factual error. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad not his nephew. The later part is corect that Ali was married to Muhammad's daughter Fatima
The Other Ismailis
When is somebody going to write an article on the other Sever group, the Daoodi Bohras, who split Ismailism when they rejected Nizar in favor of his brother Al-Musta'li during the Egyptian Fatimid dynasty?
It's not that I care personally, I'm not Muslim let alone Dawoodi, it's just that it doesn't seem fair to talk only of the Aga Khan's Khojas when discussing Ismailis. It's a bit like discussing Protestantism without mentioning the Baptists.
One interesting angle is that, from what I've read about the Bohras they're far closer to "traditional" Islam in their outward practice than the Agakhanids; I remember very dimly one reference saying that except for their Muharram observance (which the Khojas don't bother with much) they're closer in practice to the Sunnis than the other Shi'ites -- including the Twelvers.
But no, I respectfully decline to write it myself. I'm just too damn disorganized in the head to make an adequate Encyclopedist, however much I'd love the prestige. (But I will be happy to go to Mumbai to do research if somebody will take up a collection for my plane ticket!)
Anyway. Their official web site (AFAICT) is www.bohra.net; you'd also get oodles of hits off Google.
The official website for the Dawoodi Bohra's is www.mumineen.org.
- Have just started a page for the Dawoodi Bohras but it is in fact nothing more than a stub at present. am currently reading some history on the Bohras and should end up adding more material. Anyone else wishing to contribute is more than welcome.
- Hulleye 11:06, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Needs an overhaul
As noted, the article in it's current state has no mention of the second major Ismaili sect, the Mustalid Ismailis (or Bohras) and has an unnecessary emphasis on the Aga Khan (the head of the Nizari Ismaili sect) as opposed to Ismailism in general.
Furthermore, there are some inaccuracies:
- Ismailis are inaccurately known as "sevener Shias". The term actually refers to a branch of Ismailis that accepted only the first 7 imams but the branch no longer survives. Although the number 7 is significant in Ismaili philosophy, present-day Ismailis accept far more than 7 imams and therefore to call them "sevener" is inaccurate.
- Re: "Unlike other Shia communities of Islam, this community has a living Imam, called the Aga Khan", apart from the fact that this only refers to Nizari Ismailism, technically ALL Shia follow a living Imam. This is the basis of Shiism, whereas in Sunnism one of four dead imams is followed. The difference between Nizari Ismailis and most other Shia groups is that the imam is regarded as hidden from the public eye in the latter case.
Shiaopinion 08:37, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Jonah Blank has written a book called Mullahs on the Mainframe that details a lot of the customs and traditions of orthodox Dawoodi Bohras. It also contains a fairly detailed history of the community, dating back to the split between the followers of Imam Jaffer after his death.
Planning the overhaul
Let's start addressing each point. Here are my thoughts (and I will keep adding more):
- It seems odd to say, on the one hand, that "the majority of the Mustaalid Ismailis are known as Dawoodi Bohras" and, on the other, that "The Nizari Ismaili community are today headed by their 49th imam" [sic]. Shouldn't we go, in both cases, to saying something like "the largest <Mustali/Nizari> community is ...>
- As for whether it is appropriate to refer to Isma'ilis generally as "Seveners", that's how they are referred to, to differentiate them from other Shia schools—the reference is to their branch being formed because of a disagreement on the seventh imam—as opposed to the Zaidiyya, who disagreed on the fifth.—iFaqeer | Talk to me! 05:09, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
- I have made a change to the introduction of the followers of the Aga Khani.—iFaqeer | Talk to me! 21:26, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add that there is another possible explanation of the word "Assassin": derived from the Arabic "Assass" (Alef, sin,sin) with the principal meaning to found, to establish. To some scholars this root is a more likely source for the term since the early puritanism of the sect establsihed by Hassan As-Sabah was rigorous in the extreme and the use of drugs appears unlikely in the climate reigning in Assiout at the time. In addition, the root derivation of "hashish" is not specifically related to the drug cannabis but can refer to grass in general and even, in some bedouin dialects, to all plant matter. I do not think a definite decision can be made between the two possible derivations since the explanation of drug use as a reason for the fanatacism of the Assassins has such widespread currency. However I do think that the other explanation has enough plausibility for it to be mentioned.Wildbe 06:29, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
The etymology of "assassin" has nothing to do with hashish
I won't mess with the page, but as a long-time etymology buff I can assure you that there is almost certainly no truth to the legend of the old man on the mountain drugging people with hashish and that then morphing into the word "hashashin", etc. etc. - this story is retold more often than any other etymology legend I have ever come across. Probably because it combines illicit and disparate elements such as drugs, violence and religion, but I digress.
This all originated in a spurious account by Marco Polo, which is discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin
Most likely it came from "follower of Hassan" and never had even a remote connection to hashish. The popularity of that Marco Polo account, however, has all but buried the facts in fanciful legend.
- Be that as it may, the fact that a lot of people mention it and some believe and/or promote it is worth mentioning. Of course, with the explanation of what the most likely origin of this "explanation" is. Besides everything else, it is a way of showing how people have viewed, mythologised, and/or demonised the group.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:52, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
What the-!
This article was again starting to sound like all Ismailis are Nizari followers of the Aga Khan. We need to make this more general and cover other Islamilis; like the Dawoodi Bohras... I am reverting to the version before: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ismaili&diff=9789752&oldid=9712025 . Please don't be angry; let's start again there and present the whole picture. Let us either create a separate page (live Dawoodi Bohras) for the folks that believe that the Aga Khan is the Hazar Imam. Or put the material about that belief in a subheading on the Ismaili page. —iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 01:48, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
History section is over-the-top
The "history" section is pure myth. There's a page on Ali ibn Abi Talib (over which Shi'a and Sunni are sparring right now) and that page doesn't have any of this hagiography. This section is a serious embarrassment to Wikipedia. I don't have time to rewrite it at the moment, alas. Zora 04:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
