Talk:Jadwiga of Poland
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Jadwiga was king of Poland, not queen :) I know this is surprising, but she was crowned as _king_ :) -- I made the name Jadwiga throughout the article. Switching back and forth is confusing. There are other St. Hedwigs, but I don't think there are any other St. Jadwigas. There may be, though. --MichaelTinkler
- I know, but then we should list her as St Hedwig of Hungary also, seperate or whatever. user:H.J.
- In fact it's spelled "Hedvig" in Hungarian... these differences in spelling can crack one up so I think we should just call her Jadwiga. As for her being king, what about calling her "ruling queen" or "queen (on her own right)"? Alensha 00:04, 19 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Explanation of king vs. queen issue added. --Taw
To MichaelTinkler This St.Hedwig (Jadwiga)is also Saint Hedwig of Hungary. Nowhere is she listed as St Jadwiga. Here is a website showing St Hedwig www.katolikus.hu/hun-saints/index.html Please look into that. Thanks user:H.J.
- Please, HJ, look into 'google.com'. Enter 'saint jadwiga'. Hit return. --MichaelTinkler
All full of Polish language or American Polish Nobility Societies and a portrait of Saint Jadwiga spelled : Hedwigis. user:H.J.
- Oh, good! You're beginning to use sources carefully rather than just typing. Yes, Poles call her Jadwiga. I'm willing to bet that the Catholic Church in Poland calls her Jadwiga, too. --MichaelTinkler
MT Of course they do and rightly so ,in Poland. But it is beginning to look like this supposedly English language wikipedia is becoming a Polish wikipedia. And of course political correctness will have us pronounce :Hedwigis as Jatwiga. Incidently one of my names is Hedwig from my Silesian grandmother. I suppose I should pronounce it Jatwiga. But then again I believe Jadwiga is rather Lithuanian ? user:H.J.
- Well, isn't Hedwig a German name first of all ? Wojsyl 19:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
How is she named in traditional English history? (Yes, we call her Jadwiga, since she was queen of Poland, had much Polish blood in veins, and that's how was she called when she lived in Poland)szopen
- I think that she is Hedwig in English. I think Michael's right and we need to differentiate, so how about either Jadwiga (which is better for Jadwiga the queen -- or we can call her Hedwig of Poland. JHK
I am not native speaker, but shouldn't that read "without evidence of any disability?" And again, she was crowned as _king_ (krol) not _queen_ (krolowa) szopen
The other St. Jadwiga (Hedwig)
There is another St. Jadwiga (Hedwig). She lived c.1174-1243 and was the daughter of Count Berthold IV of Andechs, Bavaria. She was married to Duke Henry of Silesia at the age of 12. The two of them founded numerous monasteries and hospitals. She acted as peacemaker when two of her sons went to war over territorial claims. When her husband died she entered one of the Cistercian monasteries she had founded. She died on October 15, 1243, and was canonized in 1267. She is the patron saint of Silesia.
Move
I moved Jadwiga to Hedwig for consistency: all other Polish monarchs are under their English names. Besides Queen Hedwig outgoogles Queen Jadwiga. -- Kpalion 17:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Queen vs King
- Because the problem is only with Polish contributors, I will write in Polish.
Chciałbym zaprotestować przeciwko używaniu sformułowania King Hedwig, King Jadwiga itp. w angielskiej WP i zachęcić do pisania Queen Hedwig. Motywy są następujące:
- Polska końcówka -owa oznacza żonę, a więc królowa to żona króla. Jednakże angielskie słowo queen może znaczyć zarówno żonę króla (queen consort), jak i króla-kobietę (queen regnant). Dlatego w języku angielskim nie ma przeszkód, by o Jadwidze pisać Queen Hedwig.
- King Hedwig, a tym bardziej King Jadwiga, może być bardzo mylące, zwłaszcza dla kogoś, kto nie wie, że to żeńskie imę i może pomyśleć, iż chodzi o mężczyznę.
- Nawet w polszczyźnie bardzo rzadko można się spotkać z formą król Jadwiga. Wszyscy na codzień mówią i piszą o niej królowa Jadwiga, nawet jeśli wiedzą, że jej oficjalny tytuł brzmiał "król".
- Informacja o męskim tytule Jadwigi ma jednak raczej ciekawostkowy charakter i w zupełności wystarczy jedno zdanie na ten temat w artykule jej poświęconym. Nie ma najmniejszej potrzeby, by upychać to wszędzie w WP, gdzie pojawia się wzmianka na jej temat.
– Kpalion (talk) 15:45, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Tak jak sowa to żona sowa, a pomidorowa to żona pomidora. A tak na serio: w europejskiej tradycji prawnej tylko w niewielu krajach przyjęło się przyzwolenie na dziedziczenie tytułu monarszego przez kobiety - stąd termin queen może być rozumiany dwojako. Z terminem king nie ma tego problemu, bo matriarchat się na naszym kontynencie nie przyjął. Oczywiście można przyjąć pisownię z queen, ale gwoli ścisłości należałoby dookreślić o jaki typ queen chodzi. Jeśli zgodzimy się na pisownię Jadwiga, queen regnant of Poland lub coś podobnego - jestem za. Samo queen of Poland jednak mi nie pasuje.
- Racja, to jest chyba najlepszy argument za dookreśleniem. Inaczej albo komuś nieobznajomionemu ze słowiańszczyzną umknie płeć Jadwigi, albo też jej ranga.
- Po to się sprawdza w encyklopedii, by znaleźć wiedzę dokładną, a nie potoczną. Potocznie Polskę określa się mianem Trzeciej Rzeczypospolitej - co nie znaczy że jest to termin obowiązujący oficjalnie. Podobnie jest też z powszechnymi błędami gramatycznymi - wszyscy wymawiają nazwisko Piłsudskiego jako Piłsucki, co nie znaczy że mamy zacząć tak pisać.
- Dla mnie jest to informacja pierwszorzędnej wagi. Ciekawostką jest to, że była to jedyna władczyni w naszej historii, ale już to że polskim władcą była kobieta - niekoniecznie (nie wiem czy dość jasno się wyraziłem, mam nadzieję że zrozumiesz).
- Reasumując: queen Jadwiga nie, king Jadwiga tak, queen regnant Jadwiga - w ostateczności. Co Ty na to? Halibutt 18:03, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
Queen regnant Jadwiga Wojsyl 19:36, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Queen regnant Jadwiga
I'm about to replace the occurences of Hedwig throughout the article with Jadwiga. This is how she called herself and there is no reason for using her name in German language in English wikipedia.
Wojsyl 11:00, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- There's no reason for using her name in German, some reason for using her name in Polish, but wikipedia policy is to use her name in English, which seems to be Hedwig. Eugene van der Pijll 11:11, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, is Hedwig English indeed ? No doubt about it being a German name. But does it have any etymology in English ? Besides, do you really think that translating people's names into another language is a good idea ? Should Jacques Chirac be renamed James in English wikipedia and Jakob in German ? :-) Wojsyl 13:13, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, it has an English etymology: it is copied from the German name. Whether translating names is a good idea, is beside the point. Whether it is commonly done for a certain individual, is the only thing that is important here on wikipedia. Eugene (Note: that is not my original name; it's the English translation) 13:20, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- OK, then let's agree that English usage is the key then. "queen Hedwig of Poland" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22queen+Hedwig+of+Poland%22) has 23 google hits, while "queen Jadwiga of Poland" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22queen+Jadwiga+of+Poland%22) has 762 google hits. Does this convince you ? Wojsyl 14:26, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Not really. "queen jadwiga" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22queen+jadwiga) has 660 hits (very strange, as it should include all 762 hits for "queen jadwiga of poland); "queen hedwig" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22queen+hedwig%22) has 679, but not all about this Hedwig. However, "saint hedwig" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22saint+hedwig%22+poland+-andechs) has 853 hits, against 366 for "saint jadwiga" (http://www.google.com/search?q=%22saint+jadwiga%22). So I'm undecided, really. For consistency with the page title, I'd go with Hedwig here; and for consistency with the other Polish kings I would not move the article. But the two names seem to be about equally common. Eugene van der Pijll 15:12, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, your results are easy to explain. There was another person called "Saint Hedwig", she was German, born in Bavaria. So searching for "Saint Hedwig" does not give any meaningful indication as to the usage in English regarding the Polish queen. As for "queen Jadwiga", there's something strange with google, because I'm getting 996 hits on this search (in advanced mode), while only 696 for "queen hedwig" (and this one again including a number of other Hedwigs). I'm far from assuming that google has the ultimate wisdom, but the results for the very person we are discussing here were clearly in favour for "Jadwiga", by quite significant factor of 762:23 = over 33 times. As I tried to explain, your example searches seem misleading, because the results are hard to interpret (as they catch other persons as well). Similarly, I have no doubt that search for James would give more hits than for Jacques, but this does not imply that Jacques Chirac should get translated to James. However, you'd need to search for "Jacques Chirac" to find it. Having "Hedwig" instead of "Jadwiga" here seems unnecesarily confusing (as our discussion proves). Wojsyl 18:41, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Well, actually I lied: check the link. My search for "saint Hedwig" included the search term "poland", and excluded "andechs", so they are mostly links to the correct person. If you search for "saint hedwig" only, you get 35000 hits, mainly to towns in the U.S. which are named for one of the two Hedwigs, possibly proving that Hedwig was their usual name in English. But I don't know which of the two it refers to. Eugene van der Pijll 21:07, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Still, adding "Poland" to the query does not do the trick, as the other Hedwig apart of being a saint, also bore the title of Duchess of Poland :-) Check the results for yourself ... She was just canonized much, much earlier, hence more sources referring to her than to our Jadwiga in question here. Wojsyl 21:24, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Unless there're any more arguments against it, I'll move/rename the article and its contents to Jadwiga in order to avoid further confusion. Wojsyl 07:36, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- We should use English names for monarchs, that's a general standard. The English version of our queen's name happens to be Hedwig. It's the same as the German version? So what? English is also a Germanic language, no surprise it's got more in common with German than with Polish. We're not going to replace Chritopher Columbus with Cristobal Colon, and we shouldn't replace Hediwg with Jadwiga either. – Kpalion (talk) 17:21, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Not all the names of the monarchs have commonly used English translations. Blindly following the rule of translating each name into English causes confusion (like here with the two Hedwigs) and make the monarchs unrecognizable. The rule should be to follow the current prevailing usage in English instead of forcing new ideas. As explained above, google shows that the largely prevailing English usage for this monarch (queen Jadwiga of Poland) is "Jadwiga", while the prevailing usage for Hedwig of Andechs is "Hedwig". These should not be confused. Wojsyl 18:28, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
If there are no more arguments in favour of "Hedwig", I'm going to move the article to "Jadwiga of Poland". In googlewar (http://www.googlewar.com/search.cfm?q1=%22Jadwiga+of+Poland%22&q2=Hedwig+of+Poland) "Jadwiga of Poland" wins against "Hedwig of Poland" by a factor of 10. Wojsyl 05:52, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- All right, renamed. Wojsyl 07:28, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I support name change. Google argument is important on Wiki, and I have never heard of 'Hedwig'. Besides, in 95% cases the articles were [[Hedwig|Jadwiga]] anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:33, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
events in Hungary in Jadwiga's lifetime dealing with her own family
This os Jadwiga's personal biography article, basically. It is not restricted to events in Poland. (And, also events in Poland are impacted by events elsewhere). I feel that at least for Jadwiga's personal bio, it is rather important to explain happenings in nearby Hungary, particularly those happenings which deal with members of Jadwiga's blood family, or the potential inheritance Jadwiga could have had in Hungary etc. For example, there presumably was some feelings in 1395-99 (in Poland) to assert her rights after the death of her childless sister. Succession rights were important in those times. For these reasons, I believe the removals made by Choess 3.6.2005 are inappropriate and those edits should be be reverted. 62.78.105.49 06:43, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- With all due respect, the parts I removed were an exact duplicate of the text you put in the article on Mary of Hungary, which is linked in this article. If you have documentary evidence that Jadwiga and Jogaila advanced a claim on Hungary, then add something about that; but I don't think it's appropriate to add lots of text on non-existent succession claims, whatever their hereditary strength, and duplicating the same paragraph across multiple articles defeats the entire point of hyperlinks in a wiki. Choess 06:52, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)