Talk:James Randi

Seeing how many self-proclaimed "psychics" and other such folks love to twist the truth around (which is how they make a living), I have to ask where this supposed quote "I always have an out" attributed to Randi comes from. And are there really any "serious" parapsychologists? -- Modemac

This quote was reported by one of the CSICOP founding members, Dennis Rawlins, in an article ultimately published in the Oct-1981 issue of FATE magazine. Supposedly the text of the article is available at ftp://ftp.primenet.com/pub/lippard/rawlins-starbaby.

And yes, there are serious parapsychologists (scientists) out there in the world, with admitted programs as many accredited universities around the world as well as other independent labs and institutions. Just as there are "serious" scientists involved in SETI. Take a look at the parapsychology article for links and references. Grizzly 07:37 Jan 3, 2003 (UTC)

Randi did say that quote, but apparently Rawlins took it out of context:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1798659314d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=u1jTL4Bwsbi4Ew%24N%40hutch.demon.co.uk Lord Kenneth

Hey, Lord! What's with removing the link? "Contains misleading and untrue information"? By that criterion then you'd better remove links to JREF pages as well. Look, NPOV requires presenting or at least providing pointers to all points of view, even those that may not cast the Great Randi in the best light. Certainly there are many people who do not take Randi very seriously. Their view needs to somehow be represented. Grizzly 22:45 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You can post a link criticizing the challenge and Randi-- however, the link you posted didn't even understand the basics of how the challenge is performed.

I don't know what you think you are-- psychic, astrologer, homeopath...? -- but posting a link as an "analysis of the challenge" should at least understand the very basics of the challenge. Also, posting links dealing with James Randi is NPOV. Same with giving the URL to the KKK's website on the Ku Klux Klan entry. I am using "no point-of-view". A poorly written rant (it was certainly not in-depth about the subject) that doesn't even get the basic facts right is not what I would put in an encyclopedia. You can certainly put in some links casting Randi in a bad light, but I would expect those to generally be accurate as well-- not to a T, but no lies or things to confuse or mislead the reader. We are not going for "We MUST give all points of view a chance"-- that would be near impossible on some, if not most, subjects. We are going for "no bias". Linking to the JREF is as appropriate as linking to conspiracy sites under the UFO conspiracy section (if one exists), for example. Lord Kenneth

False: We do not aim for "no bias," or "no point of view." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NPOV#Giving_equal_validity

We aim for a neutral point of view. This page is not presently neutral point of view. - LionKimbro

Of course you would include a link to the KKK home page in the KKK article, just as National Alliance includes a link to their home page and The Turner Diaries includes a link to the text of the book. Where on Earth did you get the idea that NPOV requires otherwise? - David Gerard 23:54, Mar 15, 2004 (UTC)

Randi appears to me to be either very arrogant and uninformed or simply a Fundamentalist Materialist spending a whole lot of money in attempt to propogate his views...

I doubt he's ever really investigated the 'paranormal'... Considering that I've personally witnessed dozens of doctors accurately diagnose patients based completely on what they call an 'energy field' that they sense...

He's a fraud, if you ask me...

Khranus

This from the person who claims that dolphins work with cold fusion. RickK 01:18, 9 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Excellent point, Rick. Khranus, if you had ever read anything by Randi or observed his hundreds of television appearances, you would know that he is no fraud. You don't have to like him (he's often unlikable) nor do you have to agree with the conclusions he reaches (though they are on solid ground in terms of being well-documented, etc.) to admit that he has spent a very long time investigating paranormal phenomena, and he has an established track record of exposing "psychic" frauds. I'm sure that what I've just said promotes a larval meme of some kind, but I think Randi (though, as I said, often unlikable) worth defending. Jwrosenzweig 23:47, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I have, actually, and I find his 'methods' very flawed... Sure, there are plenty of 'psychic' and 'spiritual' frauds (which should be obvious), but there are also plenty of very real psychics, shamans and the like that most certainly are doing something more than just making up stories... Shamans in Peru discovered 'the twisted essence of life' (twisted as in coil-like) thousands of years ago whilst having out-of-body-experiences on DMT. As I said, several doctors see/sense 'energy fields', by which they can diagnose disease.

I don't promote anyone who just stomps out memes from a minute amount of evidence against them, especially not when they themselves follow a silly religious meme like materialism ('science' that isn't really very scientific, in my opinion, especially when one considers Quantum Mechanics and Superstring Theory...

To all those who think that Materialism isn't a dangerous cult just like Catholicism (if not worse), behold: Falun Gong Practitioners Persecuted in China (http://clearwisdom.net/emh/special_column/death_list.html) - Khranus (and that was speculation. I wasn't necessarily saying that dolphins 'do' in any way use cold fusion, only pondering the possibility that they do, based on the evidence. "If at first an idea is not absurd, there is no hope for it." -Einstein)

I strongly suggest you read about the 100th Monkey and morphogenetic fields (proposed by Rupert Sheldrake)... There is such a multitude of evidence out there supporting the theory that all consciousness is connected (making psionic abilities possible), that to deny the possibility can only be the result of ignorance. Khranus

Oh, "energy fields", eh? What kind of "energy" is this? Certainly the new-age type, and not anything remotely resembling science. There is no scientific evidence to support this claims-- in fact, why don't these superpower doctors go take the JREF's test? There is no excuse not to do so.

Additionally, your anti-materialism "evidence" is laughable. What you are linking to is a result of government tyranny, not materialism.

http://www.skepdic.com/monkey.html

I think you're just wacked in the head. Sorry, but you talk about scientific evidence, and none supports your claims. - Lord Kenneth

I moved this from the article:

As time passes, Randi seems to exhibit a high level of anxiety when it comes to the subject of religion and magick. Other magicians are concerned about his obvious cognitive distortions and the effect they have on his admirers, especially young magicians who are unaware of his faults and ignorance in this field. He ridicules faith. Yet he called upon the trust and faith of other magicians when confronting Uri Geller. (Abracadabra 2Feb 74). As with many other skeptics, he dictates different rules for himself.

Can anyone NPOV this? I could not find who the magicians, which were mentioned, were.

Rasmus (talk) 13:43, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Moved from the article:

Provoked by the 11 Sep 01 terrorist attacks on the USA, Randi roared about being an atheist, and blasted religious faith with ridicule and sarcasm.

Can someone give some evidence of him ridiculing religious faith because of the Setpember 11 attacks? - snoyes 17:49, 19 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Regarding the silly attempt to defame Randi by claiming that we should celebrate December 25 as Isaac Newton's birthday "instead of" Jesus, here's what Randi actually wrote in his commentary column:

"Happy Newton's Birthday! Just 361 years ago this next Thursday, Sir Isaac Newton was born, a man we know existed, someone who contributed hugely to his and to our world, and a chap we can and should commemorate by means of observance of his birthday. Instead, most of the world chooses to believe that another guy was born on this day, a notion for which there's no proof at all."

Make of that what you will. Apparently our anonymous contributor feels that being a skeptic prevents you from being allowed to display sarcasm and a sense of humor. And incidentally, there are several different days put forth as the "true" date of Jesus' birth, other than December 25th. --Modemac 18:20, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I agree with what Randi says here, but including it in the article would result in POV. Maroux 18:51, 2004 Mar 6 (UTC)

Everytime I bring up Randi's preferred silence on the subject of the remote, mundane, possibility of telepathy in Folie a deux some close-minded person removes it. I don't mind it. I just find it amusing. I guess convictions are always true.

  Charlie Turek magician

You could try offering a reference for this supposed refusal of Randi to approach the subject, instead of making accusations against him that are not NPOV. --Modemac 19:53, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

See my letter. Go to YAHOO select charlie turek magician folie a deux, my letter is still in the all experts answers. I am not making an accusation. That ain't my way. Nor is it my my way to claim another of accusations, and blow away their entries, Mr Modemac. Randi may be wrong about telepathy. Notice the responses to my letter from others; especially those in psychology and psychiatry. Notice too who finked out.

        Charlie Turek magician

You mean this letter, I presume: http://experts.about.com/q/3278/2493018.htm It says the following: "Once I went to a CSICOP convention. I saw Randi the first night. His beard was snowy white! I never got to meet him. The next day he was gone." Then after that he apparently never responded to your letter of inquiry. So what? --Modemac 09:20, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Dear Mr. Modemac, Randi, Paul Kurtz, Martin Gardner and I have known each other for at least 20 years. Only Martin has impressed me as being an honest person. I admire him deeply. Randi will speak to me about other things magic, magicians, blah, blah ,blah, but when I write to him about Folie a deux he bails out. This was not the only time I sent him that letter. I can only surmise Randi has made up his mind, and folie a deux just doesn't exist. The medical profession says it does. What do you want to believe? What pleases you? Oh yeah, look me up on YAHOO as charles turek magician and look at my book reviews on Amazon. Start with Morton Smith's "Jesus the Magician". You might find them of interest. You are welcome to have the last word. I'm through.

      Charlie Turek   charlesturek@comcast.net 20 Aug 2004

Oh, one thing more ,Mr Modemac, after you have looked at all that stuff, you can put my entry back about Randi avoiding the possibility of telepathy in folie a deux. That would be the kind thing to do.

     Charlie Turek magician

Contents

1 Categories

2 including the FBI and former U.S. presidents

3 James Randi never called Josephesen a "scoundrel"

4 One ahead

5 Randi is a fraud

including the FBI and former U.S. presidents

I know that SB has made these claims (well the first anyway not sure about the second). I can't recall much in the way of evidence that they are true.Geni 15:08, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction. You might want to take a look at the Sylvia Browne article where I have copied this text from. Rafał Pocztarski 13:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

James Randi never called Josephesen a "scoundrel"

These were his actual words from the BBC interview:

There is no firm evidence for the existence of telepathy, ESP, or whatever we wish to call it, and I think it is the refuge of scoundrels, in many aspects, for them to turn to something like quantum physics — which uses a totally different language from the regular English that we are accustomed to using from day to day — to merely say, "Oh that's where the answer lies, because that's all very fuzzy, anyway." No, it's not very fuzzy, and I think that his opinion will be differed with by the scientific body in general.

http://www.randi.org/jr/040805how.html

Somebody needs to edit this so he is not quoted saying something he did not say.

One ahead

The article makes mention of the "'one ahead' routine," but does not explain what this is. - anonymous

I also would like to know what that means. Andreac 17:12, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

from [1] (http://www.online-visions.com/effects/0302simple.html) Rick Boatright 17:29, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Simple One-Ahead Test by Cornelius Christian

Effect: You hand out small slips of paper to different people in the audience to write down any question or statement they wish. When they are done, you ask them to fold up the slips and you pass a tray around to collect the slips. Then you turn the lights to a dim and holding up each slip to your head, you give an almost accurate description of what is written inside. Then you read out the actual question, and give an answer to it! My version of this test uses no confederates and no special equipment. All you'll need are as many slips of paper as there are volunteers and a tray to carry them in. This trick gets pretty good reactions from my audience.

Preparation: None.

Method: The secret in work here is something known as the one-ahead principle, or staying one-ahead of your audience. Let me explain:

At the time the audience is folding up the slips, ask them to fold it up into quarters. I like to work with small square pieces of paper.

When you go up to collect the slips of paper, you place them all in a tray. Then, as you are walking up to the stage, you palm one of the slips in your hand. Once you have distracted the audience's attention, open the slip and secretly read what's written on it. Then fold it up again and give it a small twist to distinguish it from the others.

Now instead of picking up the slip you just read, pick up a different slip and pretend to concentrate. Then, give an almost accurate description of the question or statement. Not too accurate mind you or they may start to suspect some trickery at work here. Just almost accurate. But the question you are revealing is actually the question you peeked at previously. After your almost accurate prediction, open the slip and read the actual question that person wrote. In reality, you are reading to yourself the question which is really written on this slip of paper. Now you give an answer to this question. Here you may want to use cold reading techniques which I explain later. You shouldn't disappoint the audience with your answer. Try to please. You may also want to add a little humour here and there.

Now, crumple up that slip of paper, throw it away and reach out and pick a different slip. Then you pretend to divine the general content of this paper but you are in reality telling the audience what you read to yourself on the last paper. This is the one-ahead principle.

The absolute last slip you should pick up should be the one you sneeked a peek at in the beginning. The one with the twist in it.

Fascinating, thanks! Can that get made into an article which could then be linked to from the Randi page? Andreac 21:04, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The above would be a copyvio - feel free to write your own version... Rick Boatright 22:11, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

See new article: billet reading. Please add to it. -- Krash 23:13, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Randi is a fraud

The Amusing Randi is as big a fraud as the people he exposes.

Randi's "challenge" is structured in such a way that no one CAN pass the tests he creates. And isn't it interesting that he has the "preliminary" tests done entirely by his own people? (That's from his own website.) That is how he can ensure that no one ever passes the test. The catch is the psychic must agree to a test according to Randi's guidelines, where he is the sole judge. And as part of his challenge, the applicant must give up all rights to any legal action. In essence, the deal is rigged.

James Randi's behavior and demeanor were so culturally insensitive that he actually created a gigantic backlash against skepticism.

Here are the ways that the test is rigged, from Randi's own website:

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

"Preliminary tests are conducted by associates of the JREF"

"Remember; it's the JREF Paranormal Challenge, and The JREF alone dictates the rules surrounding it and how it is run."

In addition, according to The Amusing Randi's own rules, he controls all data generated from the tests and all information about them and you have to waive your right to sue him. This combination of facts makes it very easy to rig the tests and essentially impossible for anyone to pass it.

IOW, Randi and his people control the testing process. They are setting up the process to guarantee that it finds the results that they wanted it to find.

And Randi has been quoted as saying that there is no possibility that any paranormal acts could be genuine.

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/keen/randi.htm

"Under Article 3, the applicant allows all his test data to be used by the Foundation in any way Mr. Randi may choose. That means that Mr. Randi can pick and chose the data at will and decide what to do with it and what verdict to pronounce on it. Under Article 7, the applicant surrenders all rights to legal action against the Foundation, or Mr. Randi, no matter what emotional, professional or financial injury he may consider he has sustained. Thus even if Mr. Randi comes to a conclusion different from that reached by his judges and publicly denounces the test, the applicant would have no redress. The Foundation and Mr. Randi own all the data. Mr. Randi can claim that the judges were fooled. The implicit accusation of fraud would leave the challenger devoid of remedy."

This is how Randi rigs the system so he will never have to pay out the million dollars, or even acknowledge the possibility of anyone having any paranormal abilities. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/James-Randi

"Randi revealed that he had been able to orchestrate a years-long and complete compromise of a privately-funded psychic research experiment."

By his own admission, Randi sponsored one of his aides as a fake "psychic." He toured and took people's money for his performances. Randi says they did this "to show how gullible people are," but it's still a fraudulent method of doing so.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/2/prweb106721.htm

"For years the Randi organization has pretended to offer a bogus million dollar reward to any person who can successfully demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability. This has naturally generated a lot of publicity and profit for the lead charlatan of the Randi organization, former sleight of hand con artist James Randi. That is until the Yellow Bamboo organization from Bali INDONESIA called his bluff and actually demonstrated paranormal ability in front of scores of independent witnesses and a media representative from the Radio Republik Indonesia broadcasting network On 14 September 2003 Mr. Nyoman Serengen, the founder of Yellow Bamboo (with over 40,000 members) successfully slammed down, without touching, the Randi representative Mr. Joko Tri clearly demonstrating extraordinary paranormal ability. Once the demonstration was successfully carried out James Randi frantically scrambled to concoct a phony pretext not to pay."

http://www.survivalafterdeath.org/articles/keen/randi.htm

"That these doubts about the genuineness of Mr. Randi's dedication to objective research are far from theoretical may be concluded from the efforts made by Professor Gary Schwartz of Arizona University in designing his multi-centre, double-blind procedure for testing mediums. Schwartz was not interested in the prize money: he merely sought to obtain Mr. Randi's approval for his protocol for testing mediums - and he duly modified it to met Mr. Randi's suggestions. Having falsely declared that the eminent parapsychologist Professor Stanley Krippner had agreed to serve on his referee panel, Mr. Randi ensured that the other judges would be his skeptical friends Drs Minsky, Sherman and Hyman, all well-known and dedicated opponents of anything allegedly paranormal.

As the ensuing Randi/Schwartz correspondence (which Mr. Randi declined to print on his website) makes clear, when the outcome of the experiment proved an overwhelming success, Mr. Randi subsequently confused a binary (yes/no) analysis with the statistical method required to score for accuracy each statement made by a medium, and falsely accused Dr Gary Schwartz and his colleagues of selecting only half the data for analysis. He then derided the publication of Professor Schwartz's findings in the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research, the world's oldest scientific peer-reviewed publication devoted to the paranormal, and in which Mr. Randi himself has published contributions. He criticised the fact that the Schwartz findings appeared in neither Nature nor Science, although he must have been aware of the long-standing refusal of these two leading scientific journals to publish anything touching on the paranormal."

"Mr. Randi notoriously failed to fulfill his boast to be able to replicate Ted Serios' "thoughtography" tests"

http://www.rense.com/general50/james.htm

"Repeatedly, Randi has shown himself to be not only contradictory and hypocritical but eminently illogical in his defense of the Challenge's application process. Bear in mind that Randi asserts there is no valid evidence to support any paranormal, supernatural, or occult phenomena.

(So) What exactly is Randi asserting when he writes: "We only respond to responsible claims."?

Again, we must remember, it is Randi's assertion that there is NO VALID EVIDENCE of any paranormal or supernatural phenomena, so there really can be no such thing as "degrees of plausibility" in this field."

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/whoswho/index.htm#JamesRandi

"James Randi is a conjurer (the “Amazing Randi”) and showman who is described on his web site as “the world’s most tireless investigator and demystifier of paranormal and pseudo-scientific claims.” He used to be a leading figure in CSICOP, but had to resign because of litigation against him."

"(A)s a leading Fellow of CSICOP, Ray Hyman, has pointed out, this "prize" cannot be taken seriously from a scientific point of view: "Scientists don't settle issues with a single test, so even if someone does win a big cash prize in a demonstration, this isn't going to convince anyone. Proof in science happens through replication, not through single experiments." ( www.skeptic.com/archives03.html)

Randi’s fellow showman Loyd Auerbach, President of the Psychic Entertainers Association, is likewise sceptical about this “prize” and sees it as a stunt of no scientific value."

This is from a "skeptic" website, so it's not just people that The Amusing Randi "debunked."

From the same "skeptic" website:

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Prescott_Randi.htm

"Some idea of the counter-arguments to Randi's claims can be obtained by taking another look at D. Scott Rogo, who earlier showed the initiative to track down Dr. Hebard. Unlike Randi, who, as we have seen, had "never even set foot" inside the research facility, Rogo visited SRI on June 12, 1981. He found that Randi had misrepresented the hole in the wall of the isolation room through which Geller was supposedly able to spy on the researchers. The hole, a conduit for cables, is depicted in Flim-Flam as being three and a half inches wide and therefore offering a good view of the experimental area where the researchers were working. Rogo found, however, that the hole "is three-and-a-quarter inches [wide] and extends through a twelve-and-a-half inch wall. This scopes your vision and severely limits what you can see through it. The hole is not left open either, since it is covered by a plate through which cables are routinely run. Dr Puthoff and his colleague were, however, concerned that their subject might be ingenious enough to insert an optical probe through this hole, so they monitored the opening throughout their telepathy experiments."

Randi also indicates that the hole is stationed 34 inches above the floor. Not so, says Rogo. "It isn't three feet above the floor, but is located only a little above floor level. The only thing you can see through it - even under optimal conditions - is a small bit of exterior floor and opposing wall. (The viewing radius is only about 20°, and the targets for the Geller experiments were hung on a different wall completely.) I also discovered during my trip to SRI that an equipment rack was situated in front of the hole throughout the Geller work, which obstructed any view through it even further. I ended my little investigation by talking with two people who were present during these critical experiments. They both agreed that wires were running through the hole - therefore totally blocking it - during the time of the Geller experiments." "

William James nailed Randi (even before Randi was here) when he said, "I believe there is no source of deception in the investigation of nature which can compare with a fixed belief that certain kinds of phenomena are impossible." Yet this is exactly the mindset from which Randi operates and from which his million-dollar challenge is issued. Stated simply, there is NO proof, no matter how thorough, that someone with James Randi's worldview will EVER accept! They have already ruled out the possibility of any of these experiments succeeding before they conduct them.

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." -- Albert Einstein, in The New Convergence.

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Prescott_Randi.htm

"The title of his book thus takes on a new and unintended meaning. From what I can tell, James Randi really is the Flim-Flam man."

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Now, I'm certainly no advocate of the paranormal. I tend to be very skeptical of these paranormal things myself -- although I am not closed to them. Some may be real.

I know these fields attract a lot of hucksters and charlatans. But they are no bigger frauds than Mr. Randi himself, IMO.

"The real trick to life is not to be in the know, but to be in the mystery." -- Fred Alan Wolf

"The Universe is self-aware through us." -- Dr. Amit Goswami, The Self-Aware Universe: How Consciousness Creates the Material World

This isn't UBB. Your attempts at markup are distracting; HTML works, as do Wikipedia's own proprietary tags explained at Wikipedia:Editing. At least preview before you post to see that your markup isn't working, and remove it if you don't know how to fix it.

What sorts of experiments would fail these 'rigged' tests of Mr. Randi's? So far as I can tell, at most paranormal ones, and really at most fraudulent ones by scientific lights. This is of course debatable, but this whole section of yours sounds like special pleading - "what I favor can't pass the test but that's the test's fault", but you know what special pleading means already...

The rest (no bigger frauds than Mr. Randi himself? Even if I were to grant your main point, have you met more than a few of these people? Some of them certainly are frauds of the highest order.) is hyperbole. Recognize it. Avoid it. Schissel : bowl listen 16:30, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

You said: "This is from a "skeptic" website, so it's not just people that The Amusing Randi "debunked."" - Look at the people you made that page. You are wrong, those are not part of the current skeptic movement. Gary Schwartz, Rupert Sheldrake, and Brian Josephson are well-known pro-paranormalists, and Marcello Truzzi's main job is criticizing skeptics. Those people call themselves "real skeptics", as opposed to skeptics (who they call "pseudoskeptics"). They maintain that sitting on the fence is the only valid position. Disagreeing with them is unscientific, according to them - especially if you disagree in one particular direction, which borders on being a crime. So you should take their propaganda with a grain of salt - look at both sides instead of just believing what they write. And it is "Amazing", not "Amusing". --Hob Gadling 13:02, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Randi can be irritating, dogmatic and wrong-headed without being a fraud. I agree with him sometimes and disagree others, but nobody is compelled to take his test, and all are entitled to draw their own conclusions about it. Doovinator 16:59, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The poster who claims that the preliminary testing in the million dollar challenge is done by Randi's own people is totally erroneous. On Randi's website (the forum section) one can follow the correspondance between JREF and the nutjobs who apply for the challenge. The preliminary test is in fact NEVER performed by JREF employees, for the very reason of avoiding accusations that the test is rigged. The testing is usually done by a skeptic organization in the vicinity of the testee. If the person posting these lies about Randi claims that an organization of skeptics will be equally biased, then he will show himself to be a true conspiracy theorist, worthy of being ignored by everyone.

Maybe Tbpsmd is a fraud himself? He removed from this talk page the above text, which is unpleasant for his cause. --Hob Gadling 15:00, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://academickids.com:443/encyclopedia/index.php/Talk:James_Randi"

Talk:James Randi

Categories

including the FBI and former U.S. presidents

James Randi never called Josephesen a "scoundrel"

One ahead

Randi is a fraud

Navigation

Search

Toolbox

Personal tools