Talk:Junker

Should the phrase ex post be ex post facto? — dino

"ex post", I should think as in, "with hindsight" Max

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• "their peasants worked for starvation wages, with nearly no rights."
• "Regarded as reactionary"
• "they were ferociously anti- liberal"

These statements are highly POV and quite unfair.

• "who awarded the chancellorship to Adolf Hitler in 1933"

It should be noted that most Junkers, including president Hindenburg, were anti-nazis, and had little sympathy with Hitler and his South German/Austrian gang. Nico 20:47, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hindenburg, in 1933 was much too senile to be able to grasp what's going on. He wanted anyone non-republican. And he did make Hitler chancellor, by the recommendation of von Schleicher and Papen. As for the first one, you're right. Should read: "...for no wages at all". They were reactionary. They hated all forms of liberalism. Heck, they didn't even like Bismarck! Why do you keep defending this particular kind of people?

Max

Why not? I'm a Junker myself, at least on my mother's side. And I'm proud of it, of our culture and our glorious Kingdom of Prussia. Nico 22:16, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

<mumbles to himself: Washington kept quasi-serfs too, and he's considered to be the founder of the free world, and you've always liked the color blue, and red, especially gushing out of French youngster's chests. and Fritz II wasn't as bad as his many bloody and unjustified wars may seem and the idea that would-be Prussian behavior lead directly to Hitler is all a modern whim, and Mrs. Steinbach is a very modest woman, and we were actually quite nice to the Polish 39-45, and the Order didn't kill thousands of Lithuanians, that's a conspiracy theory maintained by communists...> <2 hours later>: Yup, Prussia And Everything That Went With It (tm) rocked.

'Von'

The word 'von' is never capitalized in German names. Moreover, it's not an "appellation". It's simply the German equivalent of French "de". In linguistic terms, it belongs to the word after it, eg Otto von Bismarck literally means 'Otto from Bismarck'. It also quite meaningless to say someone was a 'von': it's like saying De Gaulle was a 'de'.

Other Famous Junkers

Michael von Faulhaber was not a Junker. (He was Bavarian, and born a 'commoner') see http://www.bautz.de/bbkl/f/faulhaber_m1.shtml

Ludendorff

This is a discussion that was carried on User:Talk pages of wheeler and andyL. I (Wheeler) moved them here for cataloguing.

Cite your sources is a Wikipedia policy Please do so on your revert on Junkers please. Book and page number Please.WHEELER 17:04, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Britannica article on Ludendorff states "Ludendorff was the son of an impoverished landowner and cavalry captain. His mother was a member of an aristocratic military family"AndyL 19:42, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ludendorff's mother was a "von". AndyL 19:49, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I put the quote back in BUT CHANGED IT TO SOLEY THE VON word. His father was a landowner put only large estate landowners in Prussia were given the title Von. I do not much know about German titles or how they are passed but he could not be a Junker without the title Von. WHEELER 17:04, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

According to Encyclopedia Britnnica's article on Ludendorff "His mother was a member of an aristocratic military family."

Landowner does not mean Junker. Only the holders of the Largest estates were, And I do believe that also the title must be given. He refused that title. I also read the article. Von Kuehnelt-Leddihn is an Austrian and a "Von" and he should now what he is talking about.WHEELER 19:47, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Other sources state "His mother was the aunt of Empress Alexandra"AndyL 19:55, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ludendorff's mother was Clara von Tempelhoff, the daughter of a prominent Junker family. I know you have a lot emotionally invested in the premise that no Junker supported Hilter but you really should not let your emotions interfere with the facts. AndyL 20:00, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've already cited one source, Encyclopedia Britannica, and now I'll cite a second [url]http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/17jun/mencken.htm[/url] a biography of Ludendorff in the Atlantic Monthly. Again don't let your wishful thinking interfere with the facts, WHEELER. AndyL 20:10, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

WHEELER, I've told you that Ludendorff's mother was Clara von Tempelhoff and cited my source. What is your evidence to the contrary? If you can disprove the fact that Ludendorff's mother was a Junker than do so by telling me who his mother was. AndyL 20:12, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Neither one of us is an expert on German titles, nobility or Junkers. But it does remain that he was not a "von" as most American and English books have him and that is NPOV historical fact. Von Kuenhelt said he wasn't a Junker but we can wait on this until further confirmation from an expert.WHEELER 19:51, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Here's another source;

Erich Ludendorff wurde am 9. April 1865 in Kruschewnia bei Posen geboren, als drittes von sechs Kindern des Gutsbesitzers August Wilhelm Ludendorff und dessen Ehefrau Klara Jeanette Henriette von Tempelhoff.

http://www.hohewarte.de/MuM/Jahr2000/ELudendorff0007.html AndyL 20:15, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

genius, perhaps, but not a Junker. Das Junkertum, indeed, is on its last legs in Germany—not by revolution, as our newspapers would have us believe, but by natural processes. The war, in its first months, well nigh exterminated the Junkers of to-morrow; to-day you will find thousands of architects, professors, lawyers, business men, in officers' boots. And in every other direction they yield to the pressure of the advancing commonalty—even in the Foreign Office. Hindenburg, true enough, belongs to the old clan,—the Beneckendorffs were officers in the fifteenth century,—but the two leaders next in rank to him, namely Mackensen and Ludendorff, are both commoners, Mackensen's grandfather, it is said, was a butcher; Ludendorff's was a merchant in Stettin. Mackensen did not get the right to put 'von' before his name until the Kaiser began to admire him, nine or ten years ago. As for Ludendorff, he has not got it yet. All the bulletins from Great Headquarters are signed simply,—

This is from section IV of the site you mentioned. It looks like one is not a Junker if you don't have the Von. Maybe German nobility does not pass from Mother to son only Father to son, I don't know.WHEELER 20:19, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The fact remains his mother was a von and a Junker. Ludendorff would have been a "commoner" in the same sense that the children of Princess Anne are "commoners". IE in a strict sense only, as far as class politics are concerend however the royal family considers Princess Anne's children "one of them" and the Junkers thought of Ludendorff as "one of them" otherwise he would not have achieved his position in the general staff. AndyL 20:34, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I am going with what I read. At least I cite sources.WHEELER 20:06, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)