Talk:Machine gun

Describe the new page here. The following was the content of the Machine-guns page, which is improperly pluralized and less descriptive than Machine Gun:

These weapons have changed the tactics of warfare. They are mechanisms for spraying bullets onto an area of ground, enabling one, two or three man teams to provide the same fire power as a whole platoon. The standard weapon of the Wehrmacht was not the rifle but the machine-gun.

• Maxim?

Known patterns of MG: General Purpose Machine Gun/GPMG Squad Assault Weapon/SAW Browning 50 caliber MG42 Bren gun ...others...

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While the Wehrmacht had terrific light machine guns, it still wasn't the standard weapon. --Belltower

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The article says: Many of the M2 .50Cal machine guns are so accurate that they can actually be used to snipe targets at great distances, although the morality of this practice has been questioned.

I'm unqualified to confirm or disconfirm this, but it sounds odd to me. Why would this morality of this practice (in a wartime context, of course, sniping is surely immoral at other times) be questioned? By whom?

I believe that using ammunition as heavy as .50 caliber for antipersonnel sniping is forbidden by the Geneva convention, or at least, it is forbidden as doctrine (the world record for a long-distance sniper kill is with .50 caliber). --Andrew 09:29, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

I doubt that. My understanding of the various conventions limiting what weapons are allowed is that the forbidden weapons are ones that:

1. Are deliberately designed to cripple, not kill
2. Have a high risk of harming civilians (land mines)
3. Are inherently uncontrollable (gas, germs)

Carnildo 19:19, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ah, yes. My apologies. It turns out to be a common myth; there is indeed no problem with them under the Geneva conventions, and some armies do teach snipers that this is a reasonable use. (The myth goes on to claim, colorfully, that the USMC teaches snipers that aiming at personnel is verboten but aiming at equipment is okay - and dog tags, helmets, and uniforms qualify as equipment. Cute but counterfactual.) In my defense, it was a member of the Canadian Forces that told me so, and I had the sense to look it up before putting it on any page. --Andrew 20:45, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

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Does anybody know anything about Hiram Maxim? I think he invented the first effective MG but I'm not sure.

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A few points:

Regarding morality...questioned: There exists a military "urban legend" that it is unlawful under the Laws of Armed Conflict to deliberately target personnel with .50 cal weapons. It is untrue.

GPMG is not a specific weapon, but a class of machine guns designed to be used as either LMG or MMG.

Hiram Maxim was pretty famous in the nineteenth century, and invented heaps of stuff as well as the first self-powered machine gun, including the firearm silencer, improved light bulbs and an early airplane.

A few other well known MGs apart from those listed above include:

• Russian RPK
• Russian RPD
• Russian PKM
• Russian DShK
• German MG34
• German MG3
• American BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle)
• American Lewis gun
• French Chauchat
• Italian Breda
• Japanese Type 92 "Woodpecker"

The article should mention that in military usage, "machine gun" does not include assault rifles or submachine guns, and that such usage by journalists is very annoying to soldiers 8^) --Roger 13 Aug 2003

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Tracer - new??

Does anyone have backup material for the comment: A newer intuitive aiming system, favored by the Israelis is to alternate solid and tracer rounds, so shooters can walk the fire into the target. I have heard about this going back to WWII, as well as in many armies, not just Israel. Any opinions on modifiying it? User:Magicmike

According to our own article on Tracer ammunition, it's been used a long time and is standard in "machine guns". If this statement makes any sense at all, it must be restricted to light machineguns, or daytime use, or something. Probably should go. --Andrew 06:23, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Aimed fire is preferable to "walking fire" using tracers, especially in ground mounted machineguns. The use of tracers in daylight, and especially during darkness tends to advertise the position of the firer, and tends to cause the firer to become an intense bullet magnet. The optics available on Armored Fighting vehicles are typically efficient enough that the tracer becomes unecessary. Since most American .30 tracers burn out at around 900 meters, it is often useful to the tank crew to range with tracer ammunition. Some vehicles, and uses like the Bradley Port Weapons do lend themselves to walking fire.

James Baker USA (ret)

Contradiction

The introduction states that: "Such automatic weapons with a caliber of 20 mm or larger are generally referred to as autocannons."

while the overview states: "A fully-automatic firearm with a bullet caliber of more than 12.7mm (0.5 inch) is called an automatic cannon"

I have no idea - which is correct?

I don't know either. I suspect it varies -- .50cal is universally a machine gun, 20mm is universally an autocannon, while stuff in between probably varies. --Carnildo 05:02, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

It's anything over 20 mm that's a cannon, that being the smallest calibre that conventionally uses explosive shells (partly for practical reasons, and partly for legal ones). The confusion probably arose because there is only one relatively common calibre in this range, that being the Warsaw pact 14.5 mm — and it's not all that common. The 14.5 mm doesn't have explosive projectiles and is always considered to be a HMG. I've corrected the article. -- Securiger 16:09, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Heavy machine guns for sniping?

The article currently claims that heavy machine guns can be used for sniping. I find this hard to believe (but have no evidence contrdicting it). Perhaps it is confusing them with .50 caliber anti-materiel sniper rifles? --Andrew 17:32, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

No, it really refers to sniping. The tripod is a very stable mount, and the short-recoil action provides minimal and consistent disturbance to the point of aim during the cycle. Because the cyclic rate is rather slow, by careful trigger operation it is relatively easy to fire a single shot. So prior to the recent development of dedicated .50 cal sniper rifles, a small number of individuals tried mounting a telescopic sight on the barrel and sniping with them. The best known example being GySgt Carlos Hathcock (at 2250 m), although it was previously done in Korea by a British officer (whose name I forget). However, it was not by any means common. -- Securiger 13:49, 5 May 2005 (UTC)