Talk:Mitra
From Academic Kids
I've already posted something about this in the "mithras" article. I lack the courage to edit the page myself, but i've noticed something important that may need to be changed.
Traditionally, scholars believed that mitra = mithra = mithras. however, recent research seems to indicate that in all likelihood, mithras, the roman deity had little or nothing to do w/ mitra or mithras. in other words the line:
"His worship later spread to Persia (under the name Mithra) and then to the Roman Empire, where he was called Mithras."
is most likely incorrect. most likely the roman deity mithras had nothing to do with the persian god mithra.
The article on Mithrainism already reflects this information. thank you for your time.
Mitra was worshipped primarily in pre-Vedic times and his importance slowly faded with the arrival of the Aryans in India. I have removed this, as it does not square with the texts. I don't know what to make of the notice above, dis-linking Mithra from Mithras. Wetman 16:57, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Mithraeum is usually applied to cult-places of the Roman cave type. Is that what we're talking about at Kangvar (sp?) ? Or is it a regular Zoroastrian fire temple that happens to be dedicated to Mithra et sa mere? If the latter, the terminology is misleading. Also, what's the date on this temple? It matters a lot whether we're talking Achaemenid vs. Parthian etc. I could not find the specified essay by following the link. And the "ascension of Mithra"; is that based on Ulansey's astronomical theory? That assertion needs to be NPOV'ed. Bacchiad 23:48, 12 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- Mitra was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother venerated as a fertility goddess among the old Iranian deities before the hierarchical reformation of Zoroaster's henotheism. Mithra's ascension to heaven was said to have occurred in 208 B.C., 64 years after his birth. The largest Mithraeum was built in western Persia at Kangavar, and dedicated to "Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras". Other Mithraic temples mentioned by David Fingrut, 1993 (link): at Khuzestan; in central Iran near present-day Mahallat, (a few columns still standing at the temple of Khorheh); at excavated Nisa, later renamed Mithradatkirt (Mithraic mausoleums and shrines); at Hatra in upper Mesopotamia (Mithraic sanctuaries and mausoleums); at Dura Europas (Mithraeums with figures of Mithras on horseback, akin to Sabazios).
- Parthian coins and royal inscriptions bear a double date, which records Mithra's birth and his Ascension into heaven 64 years later at a date equivalent to 208 BCE. The Parthian princes of Armenia were all priests of Mithra, and an entire district of this land was dedicated to the Virgin Mother Anahita. Many Mithraeums, or Mithraic temples, were built in Armenia, which remained both one of the last strongholds of Mithraism and the first officially Christian kingdom.
These paragraphs are nearly word-for-word copies of text at http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/Topics/Religion/Mithraism/David_Fingrut**.html
Since that essay is dated 1993, it's still copyrighted.
It's the words, not the facts that are copyright. I meant to be recasting it, and I credited it as source. Now, shall I rewrite it or will you?
- Be my guest. Bacchiad 00:34, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Meanwhile, A. D. H. Bivar, emeritus of Iranian Studies, "The Personalities of Mithra in Archaeology and Literature" (http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/publications.htm) in Biennial Yarshater Lecture Series, No. 1, looks at Mitra/Mithras from the Iranian side, looking for the source of Mithraism in a parallel secret organization in Iran, and asks whether Plato doesn't hunt that he was an initiate... We just don't have a cultural running-start with Mithra! Wetman 00:31, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)
I continue to be concerned that the paraphrased sections from the Fingrut article are paraphrased too closely. You know the drill from expos. But I have left most of them in for now.
One coprytight-unrealted problem with incorporating material from that article into Wikipedia in a very close way is that Fingrut has a strongly polemical agenda: to show that Christianity is derived from Mithraism. It is appropriate here to note parallels where they exist, but we have to avoid hitting people over the head with them. I excised a couple of sentences or offhand remarks that I thought were over the top. But if you want to restore them, I won't get into an edit war, and will hold back.
I also yoinked these:
Given that Mit(h)ra is first attested in 1400 BC, I can't buy a 3rd century birthdate for him. The middle of the 3rd century marks the beginning of the Parthia kingdom, and I think that's a more plausible explanation for the start date of the royal calendar. But if we can get a good literary or epigraphic source for the ascension into heaven at said date, it should go back in.
- at Dura Europas (Mithraeums with figures of Mithras on horseback, akin to Sabazios).
This was a Roman site; belongs in Mithras or Mithraism. I don't like the split, but we have to live with it for now.
