Talk:Mongol Empire
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Thanks for all of you who participated in this topic
It was really appreciated. ~~
Suggestions for how the article can be expanded
Someone, I think it would be appropriate to discuss how it was possible to conquer such a land. I think Mongold invaded surrounding areas and villages when their trade network was interrupted.
- Well, their push to Europe does not seem to be justified by disruption of their trade network. It looks like simple greed - conquer and plunder.
So it was more trade and system driven invasion, not just wandering around trying to take a lot of land as possible. I think there should be contrast with other empires like the Roman Empire.
- Keep in mind that Roman empire existed for 350-400 years and survived through numerous rules. If you count Byzantine Empire, it existed for almost 1500 years. Mongol empire split apart soon after Genghis Khan's death. It is not clear what your favorable comparison is based on. Also keep in mind that Mongol Empire was created about 1250 years later than Roman empire. That means different world population, population density, different technolgy.
It would be good to outline the intention of the Empire. Mongol empire was not over-stretched and the Khanates had very strong control over their areas. Genghis social and economic system worked extremely well in terms of governing different areas, e.g. he would put one general in control of extremely large areas. The reason and rationale aspect of the empire would be good. Thanks for listening.
- You can't possibly know the intentions of Mongol rules. And I am not sure your theory is based on facts. Individual khanates pretty quickly fell under influence of other empires (Russian empire, Ottoman empire) or transformed into regular mono-national states. In Europe they were gone by 1550. --Gene s 05:07, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
This article needs a proper intro
The article has improved much, but it's very bottom heavy - it has practically no intro. There should be a rounded 1-3 paragraph intro that tells the story of the whole article, for those who don't want to get into details to find out the basics. --Zocky 14:51, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Jack Weatherford's bio of Genhis Khan
I don't know if any of you have seen Jack Weatherford's 2004 biography of Genhis Khan. It does a nice job of tracing the legacy of the empire, and, I think, makes a good case for a reevaluation. There is more there than ravening hoardes. If I can get a chance, I'll try to work some of this into the article. --Mwanner 01:17, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
- OK, it is not just 'ravening hordes', but the article seems to lean the other way. Is the image of a highly ruthless invader who massacred millions totally incorrect (even if it's politically incorrect!), and if it is, could some refutation of this point of view be included. As it stands, the Mongol Empire looks like all sweetness and light. --Bathrobe 23:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)
Area of empire
There is a particular idiot, and a very bigoted one at that, who needs to do a little more thinking and work, if that is at all possible for one of his intellectual prowesses [sarcastically] which [rolling eyes now] are insurmountably imprudent and impudent. He, or it may even be a she, regardless of the sex, needs to fathom [sighing] that fact taht the British empire, while not a contiguous continental empire, was indeed the world's largest empire at 14 million sq. miles [36 million sq. kilometres], this is common knowledge available from just about anywhere. The Mongol Empire, far smaller and much more volatile, was at a mere 11 million square miles [30 million sq. kilometres], this too, is common information. You may receive this sort of information from all over the internet, encyclopedias [kingfisher, dorling kindersley, britannica, etc.], books, almanacs, and the like. Perhaps, before that person reverses the British Empire and Mongol Empire pages back to the stupidity of his bigotry, he might consider his idiocy and actually do some RESEARCH. [oh! The idea!] If time will allow me to continue, which it does not, visual confirmation or comparison I should say of the two empires will reveal [to that idiot's utter consternation I am sure] that the true champion is the British Empire. Thank you for your time and patience. Vale!
- Please refrain from personal attacks. --Guettarda 23:47, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Not praising white people for all their great accomplishments is pretty biggoted. White man can't get a break! --Kyle543 04:41, Apr 9, 2005 (UTC)
- I feel most discussion on the respective size of the Mongol and British empires a bit pointless. Surely any figure on the size of the territory controlled by the Mongols is an estimate. Every map you see of the Mongol Empire has a vaguely straight line from the Pacific through Siberia to European Russia. Am i the only one to think this is just a wild guess? I have never seen any evidence whatsoever for the northern limit of Mongol control. And what marks out a place as being part of the Mongol Empire? The recognition the Great Khan as overlord? The payment of tribute? Or the existence of Mongol garrisons? People seem to want to deal in absolutes rather than accepting that in the 13th century there were many grey areas. Mongol control outside China was not based on a systematic bureaucratic tradition but on personal authority, tribal loyalties and the threat of military force. --SRP 15:38, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Area of empire, again
It stretched from southeast Asia to eastern Europe and covered more than 35 million square kilometers (13.8 million square miles); compared to the 36 million square kilometers (14 million square miles) of the British Empire, the world's largest empire.
I am removing this above paragraph from the intro paragraph and replacing it with:
It stretched from southeast Asia to eastern Europe and was the largest contiguous land empire in history.
The earlier paragraph could be restored with a citation and a few changes. My concerns, which are added to some of the concerns already voiced above by others:
- There is no citation for this statistic. This is problematic because the borders of the Mongol Empire (and to a lesser extent, the British Empire), were not clearly defined, especially by modern standards, and thus it is possible for historians to get different numbers for the size of the Mongol Empire. Even if a citation were given, it should probably read, "According to X..." rather than stating it outright, because again, different historians can get different figures for area.
- Furthermore, the phrase "the world's largest empire" is problematic. The British Empire was certainly the most widespread empire, in the sense of covering a more widely dispersed geographical area, while the Mongol Empire was certainly the largest contiguous empire. Which empire was larger depends on the calculation of area, which as I mentioned above is not exact. --—Lowellian (talk) 07:00, Apr 5, 2005 (UTC)
More significant problems
Seems to me that this article breaks down in the Disintegration section. First, if the empire "reached its greatest extent under Kublai with his conquest of China" as the article on Kublai has it, does it make sense to start the Disintegration section before his time? And the writing from this point on needs work, and possibly better coordination with the Kublai article. Also, it is my impression that the legacy of the Mongols is considerably understated by the final section. Finally, the 40 million figure for the death toll needs some hedging, no? I will see if I can work on it, but I need to get my hands on a book that I no longer seem to have (sigh). --Mwanner 16:13, Apr 7, 2005 (UTC)
- Yes. The Disintegration section needs to be integrated somehow with the After Gengis section above it, which covers part of the same period. The result is a discontinuity in the description: first it appears to be expanding healthily, then it is disintegrating. Also the section on the Mongol military is already well covered on the Mongols page. — RJH 21:43, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- I don't think I've cleared up all the problems with the Disintegration section - but I hope I've mostly dealt with the discontinuity with the After Genghis section. --PWilkinson 23:04, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Torture and humiliation
The text says:"outlawed all forms of torture and humiliation in the empire." I am afraid there is something wrong with this claim. I don't know details about torture, but it is well-known any rebellions were swiftly and ruthlessly crushed by total extermination. Also, death was punishment for even minor offenses, according to Yassa. Can it be that "no torture" clause was applicable only to the "masters", i.e., mongols themselves, or to what is called now "civil cases", or else? The original phrase as it stands is simply unbelievable for these times. --Mikkalai 01:06, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- This torture specifically applies to administrative torture and any type of torture authorized by Genghis Khan in terms of government. Simply killing and torture is totally different topics.
Recursive bow
At the end of the "Disintegration" section, there is a comment on the recursive bow. I'm not sure that it belongs in that section, and it needs to be clarified. While the recursive bow is similar to the longbow in that both were bows which profoundly changed military affairs and gave distinct advantages to the militaries that employed them, they were completely different bows in their design. --69.245.192.52 05:03, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Just a small point: it is a 'recurved bow', not a recursive bow. A bow utilising recursion in its design would be a strange sight indeed! --maru 00:15, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
Text from a Korean history website
Ghengis Khan was affected by several Uyghurs, Khitans and Han Chinese, including his Prime Minister Yelü Chutsai (耶律楚材), a former Jin Dynasty governer and a offspring of a Liao Dynasty emperior who explained the importance of tax which payed by Han Chinese at the form of silver, silk and rice, and Qiu Chuji (丘处机), one of the leader of a Taoism branch who was invited by Ghengis Khan for teaching the knowledge of long life. They "civilized" Mongolian to evolve their written language, religion and government. However, Mongolians were so influenced by Chinese culture that "During the 13th and early 14th century, Chinese was the script of choice for writing important Mongolian documents. Mongolians used a modified set of some 500 characters from Early Mandarin Chinese to render the proper pronunciation of words. Perhaps the most important Mongolian document written with Chinese characters is the Secret History of the Mongols. Among the many challenges faced by scholars in deciphering this text was the problem that words were used which appeared nowhere else, not even in the famous Barbarian Glossaries, Chinese dictionaries of the Middle Ages that dealt with a number of Central and Northeast Asian languages. It is interesting to note that using Chinese characters to write Mongolian meant that messages encoded in this system were obscure to a Chinese messenger, yet perfectly understandable to a Mongolian listener."[1] (http://www.koreanhistoryproject.org/Jta/Idx/MoIndexLAN1.htm)
Reference from the Yuan Dynasty entry
Reference from Yuan Dynasty might be helpful. --Fangyuan1st 07:06, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Penis Dynasty?
What is that???
- Reply to above somebody had inserted the word to vandalize the article which was later on corrected/reverted by PWilkinson
Request for assistance writing paper
I am darrell from the chinese high school in singapore and i would like to ask if there is there anyone who could assist me on writing a research paper on this topic? you can e-mail or add me to msn messenger at david.beckham22@gmail.com. your help will be greatly appreciated. thanks
- Darrell, my friend, try writing the paper yourself. You might learn something!