Talk:Monmouthshire

If Welsh Bicknor is part of the traditional county of Monmouthshire, then does this mean it is part of the traditional country of Wales? (and the administrative country of England)? Morwen 18:39, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

That's an interesting question that has occured to me too, before now. I'm really not sure, since I don't know the history of the place. I should think it depends on whether the exclave existed before the two countries became united. On a related issue, this article should also note that prior to 1974 the admnistrative county of Monmouthshire was considered to be part of England for administrative purposes. I'm not sure of the administrative status of the real county prior to 1888, but it might also shed some light on the national status of WB. 80.225.35.154 18:49, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A quick look on google suggests that the exclave came into being in 1651, although I'm not entirely sure. 80.225.35.154 18:57, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I was looking for a date for the de-annexing of Wales from England - the best I could come up with was in the 1950s, when Cardiff was proclaimed Wales capital. Remember that the pre-union borders of Wales were not at all well-defined - bits of the marcher lordships ended up annexed to Shropshire and Herefordshire. Morwen 19:12, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

There isn't a date because the UK is one country. If the UK was ever to be a federal structure then we could have this argument, but even a federal UK would still be one country so the concept of de-annexing still wouldn't apply. Owain 15:30, Apr 16, 2004

There must have been a date, because in the 16th century 'England' was taken to include Wales, and in 2004 it is not. These things do not happen by accident. Morwen 18:46, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

I don't purport to have any knowledge on this issue. However, I would suspect that Wales' (apparent) status as a genuine 'country' has more to do with the appeasement of Welsh nationalists than anything else. Simply proclaiming the Cardiff is the "Welsh capital" dosen't automatically, legally make Wales a seperate country - although it certainly does make a handful of Plaid Cymru activists feel a lot better! 80.255 19:17, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Certainly. However, that was the closest thing i was able to find. If there really was just a gradual slide from England (including Wales) to England and Wales I would be interested to know that too. ~

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If the current administrative area called "monmouthshire" cannot corrently be described as a "principal area" then it should not say "Principal Areas of Wales" at the bottom of the page! 80.225.35.154 19:05, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It is a county first, then 'counties and county boroughs' are collectively termed 'principal areas'. So it is a principal area, but it is also a county. This is in addition to its alleged existence as a historic county. So saying "It is a principal area and also a [historic] county" makes a false contrast, because the principal area is a county too. Does this make sense? Morwen 19:12, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

The local government area is only a county insofar as the Local Government Act 1972 uses that term. It is not a county in the wider sense, as the LGA 1972 was concerned with amending administrative areas only. Owain 15:30, Apr 16, 2004

Here, have a look at Schedule I (http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940019_en_9.htm#sdiv1). You will note that the 'principal areas' are listed in two sections, the counties, and the county boroughs. In section 1 paragraph 8 it even has a definition that 'principal area' means "in relation to Wales, means a county or county borough." I've no idea why its like that, but its not just principal areas with councils calling themselves 'County Council', they really are legislatively defined as so. Morwen 19:15, Apr 13, 2004 (UTC)

Legislatively defined as so - in the narrow field of local government. Any piece of legislation based on the LGA 1972 only deals with administrative counties, not the counties themselves. Just to prove what a nonsense this is - every unitary authority is defined as an administrative county in terms of local governemnt, but many style themselves as 'district council', 'borough council' or 'city council'. Also because of this reliance on the LGA 1972, various other pieces of legislation have to be tinkered with to stop unwanted consequences of these UAs being administrative counties. *sigh* Owain 15:30, Apr 16, 2004

Indeed- how useful these 'administrative counties' are. Have a look at the Peterborough article: Peterborough is a town in the City of Peterborough in England. Who would have guessed it!? Amazing, too, how it can simultaneously be both a town and a city! The 'policy' on UAAs seems to be utterly inconsistent (nothing new there!) - pick and choose administrative, 'ceremonial' or UA areas, however meaningless - just ensure nobody mentions those nasty traditional counties that have been around for millennia and most people use and understand; that would just be confusing! 80.255 17:22, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone know how to move tha darn box? Its blocking half the text!! Pazzer 26 aug 04