Talk:Music of the United Kingdom
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Template:WikiProject:World music
My computer logged me out, but the original article was written by me. Tuf-Kat
I tried not to overstate my Americocentrism, but I might have accentuated the influence. It was also damn hard to find actual info online about the characteristics of UK folk musics, but I have provided a start here. Tuf-Kat
In reorganizing this article, I don't know what to do with the section on sea shanties. Should they be here or at music of England or what? Tuf-Kat 06:30, Nov 23, 2003 (UTC)
I am in the process of rewriting this and making it into a series. I'm not entirely sure I like I where I'm going with it, so I'm putting it at User:TUF-KAT/Music of the United Kingdom. Comments welcome either here or there. Tuf-Kat 08:24, Jan 12, 2004 (UTC)
- Done. Known issues include:
- I probably used almost entirely American spelling. Feel free to fix it.
- The series table at music of Ireland is perhaps contentious.... The best way to fix it is to make a music of Ireland series, but that may be a long time coming.
- This article (the parent) could be fleshed out a lot and be more useful as more than a parent page for the others in the series
A suggestion: change the title of the article series to "Music of the United Kingdom and Ireland". This solves the problem with Irish music being included in a series on the UK (which is both factually wrong and politically insensitive), but is better than splitting Ireland off entirely:
- For better or worse, Ireland and Britain have much shared history, and continue a close relationship today due to shared language, media, etc;
- It would make no sense whatsoever to divide Irish music into "Music of the Republic of Ireland" and "Music of Northern Ireland" (if you go with the title change you could also change 'Northern Ireland' simply to 'Ireland' in the introduction.)
- Irish folk music has close relations with folk music from parts of the UK, e.g. Scotland;
- Modern Irish pop/rock music probably has a close relation to British pop/rock (compared to for example French pop/rock, Spanish pop/rock, etc.).
Blorg 16:18, 11 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I don't understand the objection. In what way is it "factually wrong" to include Irish music as a part of UK music? Nobody disputes that part of Ireland is part of the UK, and thus I don't see why anyone would claim that Irish music is not part of UK music. Yes, the UK and Ireland have many musical connections, which I think are aptly explained by the article texts and the overlap between the Music of the United Kingdom and Celtic music series. Changing the title to "Music of the United Kingdom and Ireland" would falsely imply that there is no significant difference between the two topics, which is both factually wrong and politically insensitive. Tuf-Kat 20:57, Jun 11, 2004 (UTC)
It's a suggestion rather than an objection; you have a good article, I'm just suggesting this as a sensible and sensitive categorisation (I'm an Irishman from Dublin).
Part of Ireland is indeed in the UK but most of it is not. "Ireland" by itself is generally understood to reference the southern state which has not been part of the UK since 1921.
However we have had a common history. Certainly from a folk music point of view Ireland and Scotland are closer for example than Scotland and England. But I don't see that it makes sense to treat North/South Ireland seperately in a musical regard - such a treatment would be politcally artificial.
You (or someone) makes the point in the article that they are not sure of the including of Ireland in the UK series.
So the point is really just about acknowleging Ireland as a seperate entity in the series and not worrying about an irrelevant NI/RoI distinction (musically) which just isn't significant! (Until we get on to the level of detail when we are dealing with the Ulster-Scots tradition !?...)
This is quite a standard approach, c.f. www.yahoo.co.uk ("Yahoo UK & Ireland) etc. etc. We can even vote in each others elections, you know ;-)
-- Blorg 23:12, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Ireland as part of the Music of the United Kingdom series
Naming this series "Music of the United Kingdom" is extremely insensitive. Six counties out of thirty-two on the Island of Ireland of Ireland are part of the state named "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland," the other twenty-six are a completely independent state called the "Republic of Ireland". The term "United Kingdom" is a very political one, and certainly not suitable for labeling a genre of music. In 1998 the Good Friday Agreement was reached establishing the Northern Ireland Assembly with devolved legislative powers. Scotland has achieved Home Rule and Wales has a lesser form of home administration. Even the term Music of the British Isles would be unacceptable to many Irish people, as well as some Scottish and Welsh nationalists. The neutral name for the islands of Ireland, Britain, and other islands in the region is The Islands of the North Atlantic (IONA), as these are the islands in question, the series could be renamed "Music of the North Atlantic Islands" or something along those lines, or else remove Ireland from the series and rename it "Music of Great Britain".
No way should Irish music be part of this series.
Renaming
Does anyone else think that 2004 in music (UK), and its fellows, would be better named 2004 in British music or 2004 in United Kingdom music. We are currently involved in a discussion of a similar issue at Talk:1976 in television/Temp on developing national subpages for the years in television series and this issue has arisen. I feel that it is always best to use actual phrases for article names. The current titles also seem to violate the "do not use an article name that suggests a hierarchy of articles" part of the naming convention. Most similar pages do not append the country name in brackets. We have 2003 in Canadian politics, not 2003 in Canada (politics), 1978 British leaders, not 1978 leaders (Britain) etc. - SimonP 21:27, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
- I agree that these should be moved to something else; 2004 in British music seems fine to me, but the important thing is to remove the parenthetical disambiguator. Tuf-Kat 23:53, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
Miscellaneous
I'm not sure if overseas territories should be included under Music of the UK; strictly speaking Turks and Caicos and the other dependencies are not part of the UK. Also the phrase British invasion is extremely US-centric, maybe it could be re-phrased somehow because it assumes the reader is American and knows this phrase. Also there are several music festials other than Glastonbury - V2, Isle of Wight, Reading, WOMAD, etc, and various awards especially the infamous Brit Awards. JW 00:34, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Regarding British Invasion, I agree it shouldn't be the primary term (it's worth a mention though). I would like to point out that it isn't really all that US-centric, as I know the term is used in Australia and the British Invasion occurred in many parts of the world, at least including South America and Japan, even if they didn't call it that (I don't know what they called it). That's pedantic though, as I agree it shouldn't be the primary term used in this article. Regarding overseas territories, I think a link in the box is appropriate, though the article itself shouldn't discuss the music of those places. Even if it's strictly not part of the "United Kingdom", its still an overseas territory, all the others of which are considered a part of a "music of" for their respective countries. Tuf-Kat 02:05, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)