Talk:Orange Order
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"There are two related organisations, the increasingly left-wing militant Apprentice Boys of Derry (named after Catholic guild apprentices who refused entry to and preented a besieging French army from entering Derry),"
This is wrong is so many ways I don't even want to begin correcting it.
Jmwalsh...
I have not said anything about the Orange Order in Ireland because there is little information available about its history there. I gather it has been most extensively studied in Canada. I leave it to those who are better informed than I to fill in its Irish role. If you check my profile you will notice I have a Catholic name, but I am neither Catholic nor Protestant. Jfitzg
The page has improved greatly - thanks Efghij - but it still needs a little npov and more information. It's sometimes a hard subject for those involved to discuss "neutrally" though. Paul
Opening paragraph & fair comment
Something needs to be done to the opening paragraph, which at the moment reads as if the Orange Order were some sort of benign charitable organisation like the Lions Club or something. I added the following carefully NPOV statement, to try to put this right: In April 2004 a Scottish court ruled that it was fair comment to describe the organisation as "sectarian", "anti-Catholic" and "protestant-supremacist". [1] (http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=818&id=476962004). User:Hcheney reverted this, saying "revert - this edit is blatantly POV; this is relevant for either the Galloway or Ingram article, not the Orange Order - this should be included if the House of Lords upholds the ruling upon appeal" Apart from the patent nonsense about the House of Lords - there is no suggestion of an appeal, as far as I know, and even if there was it seems extraordinarily unlikely that it would go to the Lords - it is clearly untrue to say that my edit was POV. It is the very model of a NPOV ststement. "X says Y about Z" It doesn't say that the Orangemen are "sectarian" etc, it says that a Scottish court has ruled that to say so is fair comment. GrahamN 17:17, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure why we're referring to the comment an an NPOV one - I'm with User:Hcheney on this. Primarily, it's a statement of the form "W said X about Y's statement Z" - which is hardly an authoritative or appropriate basis for inclusion in Wikipedia. It is, clearly, a point of view.
To further explain why this comment is inappropriate, consider the meaning of Fair comment in UK law. Fair Comment does not necessarily imply that the comment is either true or fair. Essentially, all it says is that the opinion was honestly held, and not given maliciously or recklessly without regard to the facts. The discussion may also need to be on a matter of "public interest" as well (which might exclude certain comments on someone's private affairs). The court said little more than that the opinion quoted might be honestly held, and did not defame an individual. The test for inclusion in an NPOV Wikipedia article is stronger than that.
It is quite in order to include such documentary evidence as you may find of anti-catholicism, sectarianism, or supremacist statements (though less emotive terms might be helpful). On the other hand, it adds nothing to the debate to say that a Scottish court found that someone's opinions on the subject did not meet the legal definition of defamation of an individual.
I propose to delete the "point of view", after a brief period of reflection.
Given that the organisation itself claims not to be supremacist, the NPOV guidelines suggest that such views might be more appropriately discussed in an Opposing Views section.
Paul 17:39, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- The sentence in the article could not be more neutral. It is a straightforward statement of fact about a specific court ruling, supported by a reference. It says what it says, no more and no less. If you know about Scottish law, and about and the precise meaning of the term "fair comment" under that code, then it would be nice if you could write us an article about it, because there doesn't seem to be one at present. Thanks. GrahamN 24 October 2004 [Not logged in because I seem to have forgotten my password]
Neutrality is about more than just sticking to factual statements. It's about the tone of an article and the balance of its overall presentation. However the sentence in dispute should be left out of the opening paragraphy simply because it's not very important. As Paul says it also gives a very misleading impression to someone not aware of the legal definition of 'fair comment'. There should be some reference to the controversy in the opening paragraph though. I suggest we change the sentence to something like:
- The Orange Order is the subject of controversy, with some accusing it of being sectarian and anti-Catholic.
I would also question the description "exclusively Protestant" in the intro. Obviously it is a true statement but the fact that only Protestants are permitted is a detail that would usually be left for the body of the article. It currently reads like the first sentence of the intro has been deliberately written to draw attention to one particular criticism of the organisation. "The Orange Order is a Protestant fraternal organisation" is sufficient for the intro.
Iota 19:27, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Neutrality and balance are both eminently desirable in an article, but they are different things. Neutrality is about sticking to verifiable facts without editorialising or explicitly taking sides: it is an objective quality that is not open to negotiation. Balance, on the other hand, is about including a reasonable variety of facts and viewpoints, and it is necessarily subjective. One person's balanced article is another person's biased one. The rules of Wikipedia demand neutrality; but balance, being subjective, cannot be codified in policy. It is an aspiration that we all strive towards, but it cannot be legislated for. Balance in a controversial article such as this may emerge over time after many people have contributed to it.
- The sentence re the Scottish court ruling is objectively neutral (in the sense that I'm using the word - which is the sense in which it is generally used by Wikipedians), but it has now been removed to help serve Iota's legitimate, but nonetheless subjective, idea of balance. The new wording is demonstrably less neutral than original. Instead of being specific, naming people, times and places, it now asserts in a general way that "some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian. This is certainly true, but it overlooks the fact that many others who, like me, are neither catholic nor nationalist, also make such accusations.
- Iota, I disagree when you say that these allegations are "not important". Most people in the UK and in Ireland see the Orange Order as an anti-catholic sectarian group, and to us that is the most significant thing about it. Whether or not we are correct to see it that way, we do so, and this is an important fact relating to the organisation. In my opinion, a balanced article needs to make this clear towards the beginning. The fairest way to do this is to include a demonstrably neutral statement such as the one about the Scottish court ruling.
- I agree with you that there is a problem with making it clear exactly what "fair comment" does or does not mean. There are two ways to solve that: we could research and write a good article about the precise meaning of "fair comment" in Scottish law, or we could replace the sentence with a specific reference to accusations of sectarianism from a different source. Until that is done, I think we will have to put up with the slightly unsatisfactory "fair comment" sentence. I'm afraid I just can't accept the fudge of "some catholics and nationalists allege...". It's just not balanced!
- GrahamN 15 November 2004 [Blasted password still eludes me]
Graham N wrote:
- Iota, I disagree when you say that these allegations are "not important". Most people in the UK and in Ireland see the Orange Order as an anti-catholic sectarian group, and to us that is the most significant thing about it.
To the contrary, I absolutely agree that the fact that a lot of people see the Orange Order as sectarian is important. That's why i tried to reword the intro to express that. What is unimportant is what a judge happened to say on a particular occasion about an obscure point of law, because that is what it amounts to once you take into account what "fair comment" actually means.
- The new wording is demonstrably less neutral than original. Instead of being specific, naming people, times and places, it now asserts in a general way that "some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian ...we could replace the sentence with a specific reference to accusations of sectarianism from a different source
The new wording may have been a general statement but i dont agree that it was POV. I dont think that anyone would really deny that "some/many Catholics think the OO is sectarian". Nor is it always inappropriate to use general statements. The introduction to an article is supposed to be a short summary that encapsulates all of the most important things about the topic without going into specifics. So we could write "Sinn Fein/the Ancient Order of Hibernias/X/Y/Z thinks the Orange Order are sectarian" but that is too specific for the intro and would leave out the fact that many of its critics dont belong to any organisation and may (like yourself) not fit into any other neat category. IMO it is ok (and often necessary) to use general statements although it is best to back them up with more specific details later in the main body of the article. This is the way things are done in plenty of other articles.
- ..some catholics and nationalists" accuse the O.O. of being sectarian. This is certainly true, but it overlooks the fact that many others who, like me, are neither catholic nor nationalist, also make such accusations.
This is a reasonable criticism.
- Until that is done, I think we will have to put up with the slightly unsatisfactory "fair comment" sentence. I'm afraid I just can't accept the fudge of "some catholics and nationalists allege...".
I dont think it's acceptable to continue with a highly problematic (and IMO POV) sentence until a better one is agreed upon. The statement may be a neutral attribution but IMO it is still POV (in spirit at the very least) to draw attention to criticisms of a group by using a statment that (a) is highly misleading and (b) amounts to promoting to the intro a fact that is not important enough to go there. I have tried again with an alternative wording:
- The Orange Order is the subject of some controversy, accused by some, especially Irish Catholics and nationalists, of being a sectarian organisation.
Remove that sentence if you really must. But please dont put back the bit about the judge and fair comment, at least until we can find some consensus, because i really feel strongly that it is not acceptable.Iota 03:01, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
--Aughavey 21:04, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)The paragraph inserted about the 2005 St Patrick`s Day parade in Cork is entirely incorrect. The Orange Order were invited to send a small group to participate in the Cork St Patrick`s Day parade as part of a celebration of the cultural diversity of the island of Ireland as well as Cork being the European City of Culture. The Orange Order accepted the invitiation. A single Belfast Lodge with their wives and children were to have participated in the parade alongside Africans, Filipines and Chinese families as well as the usual paraders. It was not until the parade organisers received some threatening phone calls stating "we know who you are and what you are planning" that the Orange Order consulted the Gardai (Police) about safety and subsequently withdrew on the grounds of the safety of their wives and children whilst thanking the parades organisers for their invite and they hoped to be reinvited next year.
The question therefore is who is intolerant? The Orange Order for accepting an invitation to march not only in the South of Ireland but in Cork alongside other minority groups on St Patricks Day (and no doubt wearing spriggs of Shamrock as they usually do)? Or the small minority issueing threats? There was no local outcry at all just a few extremists mostly from Northern Ireland.
To back this up:-
Orange Order pulls out of parade
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4275523.stm
Protestant cleric attacks invite to Orangemen
http://www.irishexaminer.com/pport/web/Full_Story/did-sgzWW0VMhhfecsglO-LCk0lQvU.asp
Orangemen to march in Cork
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2091-1482649,00.html
Orangemen Set To March On St Paddy's Day In Cork
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/story/18282
Instruments
Isn't there some particular instrument (pipes, flutes?) that is associated to the order and Irish Catholics wouldn't play?
The Presbyterian bar
The Order is indeed controversial in non-members' eyes.
I think the article should mention that Presbyterians were excluded from joining until c. the 1840s. They don't often mention that do they?
I don't understand why there is a fairly hefty, seperate exposition of the Glorious Revelotion on this page. Obviously it is very bound up with the Orange Order's history, but I think that mention of the effects of 1688-89 should be more intergrated into a description of the Order's history. Having a long discursion on the political effects of the Glorious revolution just looks clumsy on a page about the Orange Order, as opposed to on a page on the Glorious Revolution.