Talk:Pope Adrian VI

Discrepancy: Adrian Dedel or Adrian Florensz?

This article lists Pope Adrian VI's birth name as Adrian Dedel.

Wikipedia:List of encyclopedia topics/Biographies A lists his birth name as Adrian Florensz.

Both names currently redirect to Pope Adrian VI.

Are both correct?

Kevyn 10:39, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Adrian Florensz. Dedel (not d'Edel as some joker had made it) means Adrian, son of Florens (Florenszoon) Dedel. The text "he was, however, too weak and confiding to cope with abuses that Jimenes had been able in some degree to check" transmits no useful information beyond a general denigration. I moved it here until we can get a succinct report on Adrian as Inquisitor General. --Wetman 05:46, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

German, Dutch, or German and Dutch?

See current discussion at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pope_Benedict_XVI#First_German_Pope_since_1523_2

• That discussion about Adrian VI on the Benedict XVI talk page has been moved to its archives. I'd love to see it continue, but it would be much more appropriate for it to continue here. -Eisnel 03:59, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the netherlands was part of the holy roman empire in 1523. I believe the netherlands were ruled by the dukes of burgundy at this time.

Either way, it's obvious from his name that Adrian's ancestry was Dutch, not German (in the sense of the High German language - what is called German today and has been so since 1870). It is important not to think that the Holy Roman Empire = Germany. That was never the case. Even if it was a part of the Empire, which I believe it was, that does not make Utrecht "part of Germany." Nor does it make Adrian "of German descent" any more than it would make a Pole living in Russian-occupied Poland "of Russian descent".

--Carlos G.

I agree completely with Carlos' analysis of depicting Adrian as German, with the awareness, though, that there was no "Germany" at the time, as we think of it. I think Latin America is a more current model to think of who could be considered "German, since, at that time, they too were a people who were linked by language and culture in a way they were not by any legal structure.

--David the Monk

The Netherlands was part of the Holy Roman Empire in 1522, but most of it was under the rule of the Dukes of Burgundy. In 1522, the Duke of Burgundy happened to also be Holy Roman Emperor (Charles V). At the time of Adrian's birth, this was not the case, though. However, Utrecht was not part of the dominions of the Dukes of Burgundy. It was an independent ecclesiastical principality under the prince-bishop of Utrecht. That said, Utrecht was very much under the influence of Burgundy, and at the time of Adrian's birth, it's bishop was the bastard son of the Duke of Burgundy. At any rate, the Netherlands' status as "German" seems to me to be up in the air. At any rate, I think that this is sort of a barren question - it all depends on definitions. He is considered to be both a German pope and a Dutch pope. I think we should simply note the ambiguity, and move on. john k 04:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• I agree that this dual status should be noted, since people, especially the Dutch and the Germans, are unlikely to agree about this. And I certainly don't want to see people get angry at each other over this debate. I'm finding this whole argument about whether Adrian VI can be identified as German to be immensely fascinating. I've been reading various Wikipedia articles about this, but what I'm finding seems to give mixed messages about whether or not a person of modest birth from Utrecht in 1459 would be considered "German". The History of Germany article states that the Holy Roman Empire is considered the first German Reich, and the predecessor to Germany. Adrian's hometown of Utrecht was part of the Low Countries, which were part of that Empire, but also the predecessors of the modern Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. The History of the Netherlands article notes that the Holy Roman Empire in Adrian's time had no political unity and "little sense of obligation to the emperor who governed over large parts of the nation in name only." Utrecht was part of the Seventeen Provinces, which were released from both the Holy Roman Empire and France 90 years after Adrian's birth (26 years after his death). According to that article, those provinces had "...largely nominal and by then anachronistic ties to both realms." The article on Germans says: "the 'German' Holy Roman Empire was not in any way exclusively German." Charles V was raised in the Low Countries, but according to his article "he was not German." It seems like family ties and language might better determine if someone from the Low Countries at that time was German. I wish I could see sources that indicate where Adrian's family/bloodline was from. People on this talk page have suggested that he was raised speaking Low German, which may be evidence enough to consider him German, although others here have pointed out that Low German is a predecessor of Dutch, whereas High German is a predecessor of the modern German language, and those two languages were seperated by the Second Germanic sound shift around 700 years before Adrian was born. Then I looked at Pope Leo IX and Pope Stephen X, both from regions that are now in France, yet both clearly regarded as Germans. However, their birthplaces (Alsace and Lorraine) still to this day have populations that consider themselves ethnic Germans. I wonder, did non-aristocratic people from the Low Countries in Adrian's time identify themselves culturally and ethnically with people from places that we consider to be undeniably "German", or did they already consider themselves distinct? Did the cardinals that elected him think of Adrian as "that guy from the Holy Roman Empire" or "that guy from the Low Countries?" Hmmm... after all this reading, I wasn't able to figure out anything! I still don't know what constitutes a "German" in the Low Countries in the 15th and 16th centuries. Any sources (especially non-Wikipedia ones) and corrections would be appreciated. This is a new subject for me, and I'm hooked! -Eisnel 04:18, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The issue of Leo IX is distinct, I think - Alsace was as German as any place can be until the 17th century. Lorraine is different - it has always been largely French-speaking, and I think the case for Stephen X as German is about as awkward as that for Adrian VI. john k 04:23, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As to Charles V, he did grow up in the Low Countries, but in the south, and his first language was French. john k 04:24, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• Since Charles' mother was French and his native language was French, it seems to suggest that a Low Countries resident's status as German or not is better determined by their family tree and native tongue than by their place of birth. This is why I wonder what language Adrian spoke and where his family was from. -Eisnel 04:40, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Adrian was from Utrecht, and his name is Low German. I assume he spoke Low German (aka Dutch). No idea of his family background. People from the southern Netherlands often spoke French, especially elites, but someone of a poor background from Utrecht would certainly not have spoken French. john k 04:44, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Today's Swiss (neutral :-) ) newspapers agree on Adrian VI as the last German pope. E.g. the well-known "Tages-Anzeiger" from Zürich on the front page: "Der letzte Deutsche auf dem Stuhl Petri war Hadrian VI. (1522-1523)". Gestumblindi 10:50, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

consequently, with the rise of nationalism some modern Germans have liked to claim this pope from a Dutch culture as also German - this addition is entirely inappropriate, especially in the light of the above and archived discussion. The Dutch culture was a German culture like e.g. the Saxon or Bavarian culture. We discussed whether Adrian VI was considered German at his time and whether this means we can still call him a German - which is what German-language newspapers usually do, including Swiss ones. Myself I'm Swiss; I don't "claim" Adrian VI as German out of "nationalism" for a country where I'm not from ;-) - I simply think that Adrian should be considered German like any from the German language and culture area of his time, regardless of modern country boundaries. Gestumblindi 11:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I think we all agree that neither Germany nor the Netherlands as we know them existed at the time of Adrian VI. I think it would be more correct to refer him according to whatever political boundary he or his ancesters were subjected, be they Burgundian, Bavarian, Saxon, or whatever. --Kvasir 11:25, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This debate is nonsense. A separate Dutch nation or language did certainly not exist in Adrian's lifetime. He was simply a Low German, and as German as any other German, both politically, culturally and linguistically. In a 16th century context, the word "German" does not have anything to do with present-day Germany or High German language, The German Wikipedia states: "Die Niederlande gehörten zu dieser Zeit zum Heiligen Römischen Reich Deutscher Nation und sahen sich – im Gegensatz etwa zu Oberitalien, das größtenteils ebenfalls dem Reich angehörte – auch kulturell als einen Teil der Deutschen Nation (Niederdeutsche). Es war daher selbstverständlich, dass er sich als Niederländer und auch als Deutschen bezeichnete." -- 83

Would a 16th century Hainaulter or a Lorrainer also be a German, then? john k 20:23, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As you yourself stated, many people in Lorraine spoke French. This is an important difference. People in what is now the Netherlands spoke German, or more specifically, Low German, just like people did in what is now Northern Germany. If you told Adrian you did not consider him a German, he would probably had considered it an insult, much like if I told you you are not an American. --83

Well, the Germans considered Charles V a German, since he was from Flanders, even though French was his first language. He quickly disabused them of that. Utrecht, and the Netherlands in general, were already quite distinct from the rest of the Empire by the end of the 15th century. If you'd read all my postings on this subject, you'll note that I've not taken one side on this issue at all - I've generally argued against everyone. I think the question of nationality is simply too complicated for us to either say that Adrian VI was or was not German. Certainly, in the view of the time, he was a "German" pope, in that these things were not felt to be all that precise. But he was also a Netherlander, and calling him a Dutch pope would also be correct, because, essentially, "Dutch" (or, more accurately, "Netherlander") was at that time a (relatively distinct) subset of "German," which has since become a separate thing. If that makes sense. john k 02:50, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree he should also be called a Dutch or "Netherlander". --83 13:10, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Citing the German article on the current Pope: "Benedikt XVI. ist der erste Deutsche als Papst seit Hadrian VI. vor 482 Jahren. Hadrian wurde in Utrecht in den heutigen Niederlanden geboren, das zu seinen Lebzeiten Teil des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Deutscher Nation war und sich auch kulturell als Teil der "Deutschen Nation" (Niederdeutsche) betrachtete. Dies ist auch der Grund für die Beisetzung Hadrians in der deutschen Nationalkirche in Rom. Vor und nach Hadrian VI. kamen zahlreiche weitere Päpste beispielsweise aus den italienischen Gebieten des Heiligen Römischen Reiches (u. A. Toskana), die dennoch nie als "deutsche" Päpste bezeichnet wurden."