Talk:Quetzalcoatl

From Academic Kids

I removed the sentance at the end of the last paragraph reading "He was believed to be originally Aztec." Believed by who? This doesn't make sence to me. The Feathered Serpent Deity is pan-MesoAmerican, going back to the pre-Classic, centuries before the Aztec are known to have existed as a distinct people. -- User:Infrogmation

---

I changed the spelling of Texcatlipoca to the more common Tezcatlipoca. When I have the time though I'd like to add a lot more comprehensive stuff about the devision between Ehecatl and Topiltzin, and have pages about the entire Topiltzin epic including Mixcoatl and Huemac. -- Erosenfield

---

Just refining some of the information: Quetzalcoatl was the morning star Venus, whereas his brother, Xolotl was the evening star Venus. As the morning star, Quetzalcoatl was known as Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli (say that three times fast).

Consider revision

The "serpent" depicted in Yaxchilan Lintel 25 is NOT considered to be that of Quetzalcoatl/Kukulcan/"feathered serpent". Rather, it is a "vision serpent" out of whose mouth is emerging a warrior/god, probably an impersonation by the Yaxchilan ruler "Shield Jaguar" a.k.a., Itzamnaaj B'alam II. If anything, the "god" that is depicted here is Tlaloc, the Aztec/Teotihuacan god of Storm/Rain/Warrior. The "vision" is created through the bloodletting sacrifice of the women depicted next to the serpent, Lady K'ab'al Xook, wife of Shield Jaguar. In another lintel, she is depicted pulling a barbed rope through a hole in her tongue. Furthermore, since this page is on Quetzalcoatl, which is strictly speaking a Central Mexican, and more specifically Aztec, diety, the image should also be Aztec. There are Maya depictions of what is generally considered the equivalent diety, Kukulcan, but putting that up on this page would be akin to posting an image of Jupiter (god) on the page for Zeus. I wish I could provide a link to an image of Quetzalcoatl in the public domain, but I can't. If I do come across one, I will come back. See Simon Martin and Nikolai Grube (2000) "Chronicles of the Maya Kings and Queens" page 125 for further info on Yaxchilan Lintel 25 Rawhead

Thanks for your erudite feedback! Yes, the "Vision Serpent" has been recognized for about a quarter century now, so that's not new. As "Quetzalcoatl"/"Kukulcan" mean (with the metaphorical use of "Quetzal feather") "divine/sacred serpent", I've been one of those who thought that the "Vision Serpent" was an aspect of "Kukulcan", but if recent scholarship agrees that this particular divine feathered serpent is a different one from the more famous Divine Feathered Serpent, I'll accept that. The article rather waunders from talking about the specific Aztec Quetzalcoatl to Divine Feathered Serpent Diety in MesoAmerica in general, do you have any suggestions on improving it? Also, if we keep this illustration on the Yaxchilan article, do you have a reccomendation on how it should be captioned? Thanks, -- Infrogmation 06:54, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, since there probably are as many interpretations of iconographic motifs as there are art-historians and iconographers, I can't and won't say that there's a consensus on the I.D. of the Yaxchilan Lintel 25 serpent. Also, I would be wary of attributing anything predating the Terminal Classic Period (A.D.800-1000) in the Maya region as being Kukulcan/Quetzalcoatl/"feathered-serpent". The spread of the Quetzalcoatl "cult" seems to occur fairly late, after the fall of Teotihuacan. Full incorporation of it in the Maya world occurs at, e.g., Chichen Itza, firmly Terminal Classic/Early Postclasssic Period. A quick review of the literature, however, informs me that current scholarship I.D. the Yaxchilan Lintel 25 serpent as equivalent to the Teotihuacan "War Serpent" (see, for example, Karl Taube [2000] "The Turquoise Hearth" in Carrasco, Jones, and Sessions eds., Mesoamerica's Classic Heritage: 274). The War Serpent occurs in conjunction with the Teotihuacan "feathered serpent" on the Temple of the Plumed Serpent (a.k.a., Quetzalcoatl temple/pyramid), but is considered distinct from the latter. Also, while the Plumed Serpent is generally considered ancestral to the Aztec Quetzalcoatl, the War Serpent has been suggested to be ancestral to the Aztec Xiuhcoatl (fire serpent). All in all, I think what's being depicted in Yaxchilan Lintel 25 has more to do with war/warrior sybolism (with Tlaloc there as well), which would also slightly be at odds with Quetzalcoatl, not generally considered as a war-god. I would also like to point out that the serpent on that lintel is, well, not really feathered ;-). In terms of captioning, I would go along with Martin and Grube. It is Tlaloc, probably impersonated by the then ruler of Yaxchilan "Shield Jaguar" emerging out of the mouth of a Mexican-style "War Serpent" as part of a vision conjured up by Shield Jaguar's wife, Lady Xook. If that's too long, something like "Vision of a Mexican War Serpent and Storm God Tlaloc". Something along those lines. In terms of improving this article, you might want to check out Miller and Taube (1993) An Illustrated Dictionary of The Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya and its section on Quetzalcoatl. Short but concise history of the diety. Great book as well. More if I come up with anything. Rawhead 06:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)