Talk:Rainier III, Prince of Monaco
|
|
I am confused by the statements about Ranier's World War II involvement. Which French Army did he serve in? Vichy or Free French? Had he fled the continent or was he in occupied territory? S-Slater ___________________________________________________________
Isn't it standard to use a photo of the deceased monarch at the beginning of their reign to illustrate the article? Because the more recent photo is still there. DRave _____________________________________________________________
An event mentioned in this article is a May 9 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)
Answer: The French Army, most notably fighting German troops in Alsace in 1944-45. He joined the French Army in September 1944, at age 21. De Gaulle and the Free French having taken power in Paris in August 1944, there was neither Vichy, nor Vichy army at that time anyway.
I have deliberately italicised Rainier's personal name in the opening paragraph. It is not generally the style right now but please do not change it. We are trying to work out a new more visually-friendly way of stating a monarch's reign name and personal name. This is one style being proposed. It is here as a test so that people can see how this method might work. If it is decided not to use this as the template the layout can be changed back later. So please leave this test layout in this format so people can judge how it works. FearÉIREANN 01:22 29 May 2003 (UTC)
The debate on what template to use is on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles).
Whoever wrote this page, probably does not know French. Rainier's father was not "née" Comte de Polignac, but "né" Comte de Polignac, as he is male. Unless, of course, the usage of "née" in English is difference, in which case I apologise. I've changed it anyway. Erwin 14:47, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)
| Contents |
Prince Rainier III: Intensive Care
Prince Rainier III, Monaco's ruler since 1949, is in intensive care, and his health, according to CNN, has "taken a turn for the worst."
Principality vs. Kingdom
Since Monaco is considered a "Principality", does this mean that Prince Ranier's royal line (including himself) will never attain the title of "King", or if female, "Queen"? -- Thanks
Principalities have in the past been upgraded (so to speak) to kingdoms. But as long as it is a principality, the hereditary prince of Monaco will always be that, a prince, and his wife a princess. FearÉIREANN 21:52, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Yes, but in Monaco they make a distinction between Sovereign Prince, which is the Prince that rules the Principality; Hereditary Prince, which is the heir apparent to the throne; and "just" prince(ss), which are those who bear the title but are not in direct line to the throne. As of Prince Rainier III's death, Prince Albert "jumped" from the second condition to the first, and at the moment there's no Hereditary Prince (Andrea is not a prince, and he isn't heir apparent or even presumptive to the throne, at least not yet). Regards, Redux 12:20, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Your assertion, re "just" prince(ess), is incorrect. Princess Stephanie is in direct line to the throne, directly behind Princess Caroline's children, according to the succession. And Princess Caroline, by Monaco's 2002 revise of the laws of succession, immediately and automatically becomes Hereditary Princess of Monaco as next in line to the throne as well as heiress-presumptive. Mowens35 10:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- So women are no longer barred from the throne? That's a big change. If so, I really wasn't aware of that. As far as I knew, what had changed is that Monaco would no longer turn to French sovereignty should Prince Albert die without issue, but (AFAIK) he would have to adopt one of his nephews in order to bestow upon them the right to succeed him (and neither Princess Caroline nor Princess Stephanie were in line to succeed as "Sovereign Princess" of Monaco). Are you positive about that? Not that it would make much practical difference though, since Caroline would be unlikely to outlive her younger brother, and her son, Andrea, would be next in line to succeed just the same (even though he doesn't even bear the title of Prince of Monaco). But the condition of "just" Prince(ss) still exists, since the only distinctions attached to the title are "Sovereign" and "Hereditary". So, if women are now included in the line of succession, as of Rainier III's death, Albert is the Sovereing Prince and Princess Caroline is the "Hereditary Princess", which makes princess Stephanie "just" a princess (and her children and Caroline's don't even bear said title). Regards, Redux 22:16, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Please see relevant information re regarding the 2002 change in the laws of succession to the throne in (a) Rainier's obituaries, (b) the websites of leading newspapers, such as the New York Times, and (c) any other place you like. It is well and thoroughly documented and needs no explanation. The Princess of Hanover is now Heiress Presumptive and Hereditary Princess of Monaco; her presently non-royal children are next in line; then Stephanie and her equally non-royal children. Mowens35 22:17, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Succession
Re the discussion about who will become prince if Albert has no children, I was under the impression that if the male Grimaldi line fails, Monaco will revert to France under the terms of whatever treaty it is that regulates relations between France and Monaco. Is this not so? Adam 01:28, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No a new treaty was made in the 1990s - even if there are no male heirs Monaco will not revert to the French. PMA 02:23, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
PMA is correct. Previously the Grimaldis had to resort to legitimising illegitimate children etc to continue but now legally they don't have to play such games. The treaty was negotiated in part because of the (shall we say expectation) that Prince Albert was unlikely to get any woman in the motherly way and because of the fact that the Catholic Church never accepted the validity of Princess Caroline's second marriage, meaning that her children were in the Catholic Church's eyes illigitimate - a bit of a problem is a supposedly Catholic principality. So they could hardly be acceptable to become future Princes of Monaco. France in turn reckoned that taken on Monaco would be more of a burden than a help; it could hardly keep Monaco's low tax rates without rows in the rest of France, and if it raised them it would be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. France benefits by having a rich Monaco nearby, without the hassle of running the damn thing. So both sides were happy to bin the old treaty. FearEIREANN 03:21, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, Pope John Paul II recognized Princess Caroline's marriage to Stefano Casiraghi. That happened either in the late 80's or early 90's, in fact I remember it was sad because the decision came through only months after Casiraghi's death in a speedboat accident (I guess that would make it 1990, but I'd have to double check this date). The Pope granted her canonic divorce from her first husband (I believe it had something to do with his physical violence towards her). In the eyes of the Catholic Church, Princess Caroline's children are legitimate, which means that Andrea, her elder son, is eligible to become prince of Monaco in the event of prince Albert II dying without issue. Regards, Redux 12:13, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Our story now says that Rainier is both conscious and clinically dead. He can't be both. Could someone clarify this? Adam 11:35, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- No, he's conscious and in stable condition, unless the anon who wrote that he was dead has some information that Google News (http://news.google.com/news?q=rainier) hasn't learned yet. User:Rdsmith4/Sig 15:20, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- It was reported that he was clinically dead in some tabloids, with the story being that his death would not be announced for a few days so that the three days of official mourning would take place at the weekend and so not cost business money. (A heap of garbage IMHO, but that's the tabloids for ye. A classic 'made up' story. Legally you can't not report the fact of his death the moment it happens. Constitutionally every head of state must be formally notified (that's why there was a delay in announcing Diana, Princess of Wales's death, BTW. It could not be confirmed until officially every head of state had been notified!) If you kept the death quiet for a few days you'd cause a major diplomatic row, be seen to ride roughshod over the Monaco constitution, be acting unconstitutionally. etc. Only dorks writing for the tabloids don't know that. Most of them couldn't even spell 'constitution' let alone know what one is. Oh I am being bitchy tonight! :-) FearÉIREANN 02:23, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
"Constitutionally every head of state must be formally notified (that's why there was a delay in announcing Diana, Princess of Wales's death, BTW. It could not be confirmed until officially every head of state had been notified!)" Whose constitution specifies such a thing? Britain doesn't have a constitution! Where is the British law which says that every head of state must be notified of the death of the Prince of Wales's ex-wife? Adam 02:33, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- 'Constitutionally' was the wrong word. All states operate under a set of an agreed rules and procedures in inter-state relations. For example, heads of state flying over another state to go to somewhere else invariably sends a message from the plane to each head of state of every state he or she passes over. It is a form of ritualised courtesy. There are numerous rules and regulations. Constitutionally heads of state only have relationships with other heads of state, and governments with governments. So one of the first acts by Prince Albert will have been the authorisation of a message to be sent to every other head of state of a state Monaco has diplomatic relations with, informing them of Rainier's death and his own accession. The other head of state then informs their country's government. Alternatively the governments are informed by the Monaco government.
- The procedures used in all these relationships are highly technical, but are followed and a failure to do them is seen as a diplomatic snub. Another example: heads of state can perform two types of top level visit to another state. A state visit is where one head of state visits another on the invitation of the head of state. An official visit is where the head of state is invited to the other state by that state's government, with the agreement of their own government. The first is a top of the range visit, the second a mid-level visit. State visits are heavy on pomp and ritual (right down to formal dress for state dinners) . Official visits are rather informal and usually a prelude to a later state visit.
- Other states would not be notified of the death of an ex-wife of an heir to the throne. But they would be notified if they had had children for then they would receive notification not of the death of an ex-wife but of the death of the mother of a future king or queen. These procedures are all very technical and procedural (for example, everytime Queen Elizabeth writes to another head of state she signs the letter with the formulaic Your good friend, Elizabeth R even if they aren't actually friends at all, because she means her good friend as queen, not personally (though they may be personal friends). For my sins I know quite a lot about these technical procedures. FearÉIREANN 23:15, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Longest reigning?
When he was alive Rainier was the longest serving monarch in Europe. Now that he's dead, though, how does his reign stack up to other monarchs in history? Queen Victoria's reign lasted 63 years.
The caption on the photo will have to change. JohnnyB 17:11, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- Japanese Emperor Hirohito: 63 years. China's Kangxi Emperor: 61 years; Qianlong Emperor: 60 years. -- Toytoy 17:54, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- The opening paragraph:
- Rainier III ruled Monaco from 1949 to 2005. ... he was ... the world's second longest-serving head of state.
- Hey, this is not true! -- Toytoy 18:07, Apr 6, 2005 (UTC)
- I think what was meant was, he was the second longest-serving of all living heads of state... until he died. It should be fairly clear in context. -- Curps 22:00, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)
"just" prince/ss
The only person covered by this is HSH Princesse Antoinette, who, as of April 6, has been removed from the line of succession.