Talk:Referendum
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Meaning
A plebiscite is directed to all citizens, regardless of their franchise.
What does "regardless of their franchise" mean?
Referendum vs. plebiscite
Is there actually any difference between a referendum and a plebiscite except the negative connotation that plebiscites are generally held by dictators? -Will231 (4 Mar, 2004)
Republic of Ireland
While it is interesting to know how the constitutional changes are handled in Republic of Ireland, I don't really think it belongs to this article. IMHO this article should be left general with links to such things ... Any opinions? --Romanm 17:45, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Referendum vs Plebiscite
The convention described seems to be the reverse of what happens in Australia. My understanding is that we call it a plebiscite when it is advisory and a referendum when it is a binding constitutional matter. I believe the referendum to decide upon the national song was called a national poll. Can anyone comment?
Multiple-choice referenda and Switzerland
I don't understand what the article is trying to tell us. Multiple-choice referenda are, in fact, quite common in Switzerland, because one typically can vote on the referendum and on a counter-proposal drafted by the parliament. Now, if both fail to get the necessary support, neither is enacted. A tie-breaking question is applied in the case where both the referendum and the counter-proposal are accepted. The article seems to imply that the tie breaker applies when neither passes, which is wrong.
A further note on this: a facultative referendum passes if it gets the support of a majority of votes. An obligatory (mandatory) referendum needs not only an overall majority, but also needs to pass in a majority of cantons (the so-called Ständemehr). Lupo 10:17, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Some more: Citizen's initiatives are subject to the obligatory referendum, if they are considered valid by the parliament. An initiative can be rejected by the parliament as invalid for formal reasons, but also if it would demand changes contradicting international law or treaties. Tie-breaking in an obligatory referendum is tricky, because a double majority of votes and cantons is needed. If one option gets a majority of votes, but the other option gets the majority of cantons, the option is chosen where the sum of the percentages of votes and cantons in the tie-breaker question is higher. Lupo 10:26, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Lupo, I'd like to improve the wording in the article so can I ask you to clarify the Swiss system for me? As I understand you you're saying that:
- A "multiple choice" referendum is only ever held on two options, and these are always an initiative and a government counter-proposal. There are no "multiple choice" votes on 3 options or more.
- If both options pass a "tiebreaker" vote is held, and the proposal that loses the tie-breaker is then disregarded while the winner becomes law.
Do I have this right? Also just to make sure I understand the tie-breaker system. Suppose there are two options: A and B. Both pass and a tiebreaker is held. The results in the tiebreaker are:
- A is supported by 45% Voters + 60% Cantons = 105% overall
- B is supported by 55% Voters + 40% Cantons = 95% overall
So A wins the tie-breaker. Is this what you mean by the "option is chosen where the sum of the percentages of votes and cantons in the tie-breaker question is higher"? Iota 16:00, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Right on all counts, as far as I can see. Multiple choice occurs when there is an initiative and a governmental counter-proposal to vote on. You get three questions:
- A: Do you vote yes on initiative X? (Yes/No/Empty)
- B: Do you vote yes on the counter-proposal? (Yes/No/Empty)
- Tie breaker (Stichfrage): In the case that both the initiative and the counter-proposal pass, shall (A) the initiative or (B) the counter-proposal become effective? (A/B/Empty)
- Now, typically people who vote Yes on 1 and No on 2 will vote A on the tie-breaker (3), and likewise a No on 1 and Yes on 2 results in a B at 3. Still, the tie-breaker may have a different percentage of A-votes than question 1 alone: people voting Yes on both 1 and 2 are equally likely to put A or B in the tie-breaker. And people voting No on both 1 and 2 may still answer the tie-breaker with A or B to indicate a preference for the lesser evil (as they may perceive it...). Your example looks good, but only for the tie-breaker. If those were the percentages for questions 1 and 2, respectively, both would have failed.
- BTW, I have no idea what would happen if the tie-breaker was tied... However, tie-breaking is extremely rare. The text of the relevant paragraphs of the Swiss constitution is available online in German (http://www.admin.ch/ch/d/sr/101/index.html#id-4-2), French (http://www.admin.ch/ch/f/rs/101/index.html#id-4-2), and Italian (http://www.admin.ch/ch/i/rs/101/index.html#id-4-2). Lupo 19:03, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Quorum ?
I question the following paragraph in its fastidious refusal to use the word "quorum" to describe the minimum threshold for a referendum:
- In some countries there is also a requirement that there be a certain minimum turn-out of the electorate in order for the result of a referendum to be considered valid. This is intended to ensure that the result is representative of the will of the electorate and is analogous to the quorum required in a committee or legislature.
It's not analagous to a quorum; it is a quorum. The current media discussion of the Italian stem-cell referendum discusses it "failing to reach a quorum", not "failing to reach a minimum threshold" or "failing to reach a 'quorum'". Granted, the quorum article restricts the definition to "deliberative bodies"; however I think the reason is that few English-speaking jurisdictions which provide for referendums establish thresholds, so the question rarely arises; nevertheless, when it does, the word "quorum" is used freely. I suggest both referendum and quorum be amended accordingly. Joestynes 08:01, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)