Talk:Scale (music)
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Removed
I deleted this
- "More generally, a scale is a division of an acoustic frequency range in an interval [f,2*f] with a finite number of steps which are defined by their relation to the root of the scale, the note with frequency f."
Because
- a.) it doesn't make a whole lot of sense
and
- b.) it holds to an incorrect (and now deleted) idea that integral to the idea of a scale is whether it ascends or descends by steps, and this is not true in the most general case.
Your rewrite is a lot clearer. Big improvement! -- Tarquin
- Thanks!JFQ
Western bias
folks:
to me, many of the "music concept" pages read as if the author assumes that the Western European art music model is normative; i would like to reduce the presence of that bias, but only after some dialogue about the merits of more inclusive definitions.
this page, scale, seemed a good launch pad for the discussion, since in some traditions, it is possible to discuss scales and melodies without requiring that pitches are fixed--see the discussion of chunings in The Soul of Mbira, Paul Berliner, for an example from Shona mbira music of Zimbabwe. Therefore, a more abstract introduction to scale--collection of pitches, usually bounded by octaves, directional (melodic minor, raga in Hindustani music) or nondirectional, ordered--might be useful before a discussion of intervals; half steps and whole steps could be gently introduced here but more in-depth in an idiom-specific page.
what do more long-time contributors think?
- I think that if any article is too European-classical-centric, you should certainly stamp on it - there's a fair amount of it around, and I try to correct it when I see it, but it's tricky, and it has to be balanced against the fact that most people reading these articles are going to be most familiar (in many cases, exclusively familiar) with western music. Of course, that doesn't mean that we should only discuss western music, but it does mean that if one starts on raags and whatnot too soon you're going to turn readers off. I certainly think that we should give the widest and most inclusive definition possible, but the initial definition should also be as simple as possible. Later on in the article, the gory details can be revealed, and we can get more complicated. This is just my opinion, of course.
- In general, the best thing you can do, I think, is edit things as you see best (be bold in updating pages), and I'm sure people will let you know if they disagree with what you're doing! --Camembert
- This problem, treating the music of a specific economic class of a specific geo-political location during a specific time period as Music or the normative standard, is, unfortunately, not wikipedia specific.
- Wikipedians are expected to cite sources, and English sources are inevitably biased towards European influence music. Unfortunately one does not always have the knowledge one needs to correct this, whether or not one feels musically knowledgable, and thus one often has trouble providing examples.
- Perhaps we need a 'WikiProject:Clarify and explain musical terminology' and 'WikiProject:Give non-Classical era music a fair shake'?
- Hyacinth 20:46, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Some changes
folks:
(1) i moved the math-y discussion of scale degree out of the first paragraph and into the scale degree section;
(2) a scale is indeed an ordered series of notes, but that order is not just by pitch/frequency. in western music, think melodic minor scale: the scale is ordered by pitch and direction (asc/desc).
(3) i switched the frequency link to pitch, since frequency is very math-y, while pitch links to frequency in its first sentence.
(4) i removed the brief discussion of pentatonic and chromatic that preceded the scale list, as pentatonic scale includes scales that are not subsets of the chromatic scale: pelog, etc.
(5) i added pentatonic to the list of scale types, so it wouldn't get lost after the preceding edit. jp2 21:16 Apr 16, 2003 (UTC)
Hijaz scale
Isn't the Hijaz scale the same as the Spanish and Jewish scale? (GCarty 18:04, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC))
Scales = or ≠
Scales and intervals are not equivalent to their pitches or exact frequencies. There is no "the chromatic scale", but many chromatic scales. The most common one is the equal tempered chromatic scale, which would include only an approximate of a pelog scale or pelog scales. There are many tunings of pelog scales, with each ensemble having a different tuning, and there also exist justly tuned chromatic scales, and there are or could be chromatic scales which contain the exact intervals of a specific tuning of a pelog scale. A major third (just) is a ditone (pythagorean) is 4-semitones (equal temperament), but luckily each can serve as the other. My point in all this is that scales are the same or different depending on context, on what you need the scales to do. The Hijaz scale, if not simply another or the real name for the Spanish scale, may seemingly be identical but still be a seperate thing (that may nonetheless substitute for the other). Does I mean that we shouldn't make connections or redirects? I mean that we should be both more flexible and do more research. Hyacinth 20:37, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
New Term, it's my own, can I introduce it?
I would like some feedback on how other contributors to the music theory sections of wikipedia would feel about my introducing a new piece of terminology which you may agree is potentially very useful. I realised several years ago that it would be possible to categorise different scales (I have described Just or 12 tone as "Tunings" not scales)with regard to how many notes they can share in common if their root notes are moved to the point where they have their maximum number of notes in common. For two modes of the same scale (e.g. Ionian ("Major") and Aeolian ("Minor") this value would be equal to the number of notes in each scale (7, not counting the octave of the root note) but for different "parent scales" (i.e. the orders of intervals from which modes can be chosen) these values are less. The size of this number (which I propose to call a "scale affinity" value) is a very simple numerical measure of similarity between scales. Generally speaking the changes of scale which are most appealing cut down on the number of different notes introduced each time, hence, in theory tables of scale affinities could provide paths between different scales which minimise dissonances. Also they would alert a musician to the fact that changing only one note from their current scale may lead them to another scale with which they may only have been within their grasp in another context. This could help a musician learn to learn how to improvise in novel ways. I have been using such tables for years and have a piece on my brother's website regarding the principle. Recently I've just learned how to use spreadsheets to enumerate similarities between scales in all possible alignments and intend to make the macros involved widely available, for free, through the internet. So my quandries are:
- I'm no expert on music theory and a term may already exist for this property, I would like to know if this is the case.
- If an amateur like myself introduces a new term and attaches a link to my scale theory website it may be regarded as a vain piece of self-aggrandisement. It is true that I wish to popularise this concept but is this the forum by which to do it?
My website is very, very ancient and needs updating, something I would have to consider doing before attaching such a scruffy thing to a major portal of communication like Wikipedia. I would welcome suggestions. Nonetheless you may wish to check it out by going to my brother's website http://www.classaxe.com/index.htm and then clicking on the links "Friends" (left hand side)and then "Andrew F." and then "scales resources". I expect that there are errors with some of the values but my MS Excel based method makes this process far more reliable.
I would be grateful for your comments.
you can email me if you wish:
u10ajf@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks.--U10ajf 00:25, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- To give you quick answers: Sorry, no, it's not a new, it's not your own, and if it was you could not add it.
- See the recently created common tone and modulation (music) for the first, and Wikipedia:No original research for the latter. Hyacinth 01:13, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. Nonetheless it seems to me that the common tone concept exclusively regards keys built from the same parent scale (the major scale and its modes) and isn't the same as the scale affnity concept which I introduced to compare different scale forms. (Major and Harmonic minor scales cohabit a group roughly similar to the closely related key group with only one note different). However I do acknowledge your point that wikipedia does not allow original research to be included and shall refrain from doing so. I should still be interested to hear from other wikipedia users if they have found the idea elsewhere since then I could reference their site instead of my own. I am new to Wikipedia, are there any more widely viewed noticeboards for peer review than the individual "discussion" postings which pertain - for my present purpose - too specifically to previous entries? Whether the concept is new or not I think that the enumeration of all the possible overlaps (12 each!) between the 47 different scale forms catalogued and where their constituent arpeggios lie may be of use to jazz musicians. Thanks for your time. Andrew --U10ajf 03:16, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- You're welcome, your discovery is insightful and I think your lists would be useful. Hyacinth 05:11, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- See also: L'Isle Joyeuse. Hyacinth 16:27, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Writing for the lay reader
I reverted the page to (the last version by me) before the anonymous "Clarified and reorganized technical material" changes. The "technical material" may be clarified and reorganized, but also added was an inappropriate "Physical roots of scales" section. Hyacinth 21:21, 17 Mar 2005 (UTC)
- Hi there, the "clarified and reorganized" edits were mine. Forgot to log in for the first one, then logged in for the second one. I realize now that I should have posted here to explain the rationale behind the changes -- my apologies.
- I'm a classically trained musician, and I found this page a difficult read. It strikes me that the page would be nearly impossible to understand for anyone who didn't already know all the material. The opening sentence alone is, I think, enough to make a non-musician run for cover. To compound the problem, many of the other articles linked to are also ambiguous or confusing.
- I added the "Physical roots" section to explain why so many of the ideas that surround scales are vague or undefinable -- often described in terms of "feel" or "impression". I suspect that this may seem willfully obfuscatory to a beginner. However, the vagueness is indeed necessary... in many cases there simply is no clear technical explanation for what makes a particular scale or mode "feel" a certain way, since the perception of music is rooted in psychoacoustics. Perhaps it was not the best way to do it. However, I still think this point needs to be addressed somehow. If that section alone was the problem, could it not simply have been pasted here for improvement?
- That would have allowed the rest of the changes to remain, which I think drastically simplified the article without sacrificing technical depth. It seems that those changes have now vanished into the ether, and I'm afraid I don't have time to take another stab at it. I would be grateful if someone else could attempt this again. Wordie 13:30, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)
You're heading title is right. Though Wikipedia guideline includes Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles#Think of the reader and Wikipedia:Explain jargon, many many articles on math, science, philosophy, and a host of other topics are not understandable to a lay reader. Just because an article is about music I do not see why it should be held to a higher standard; we'll get there, like everyone else, it will just take time. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Music.
I object to the "Physical roots" section because it is information currently found or needed at Musical tuning and the various articles about types of tuning. I also do not believe that claims about the origins of scales are NPOV unless backed by citation and references, and then a great deal of care is needed to provide balance between the many and usually opposing theories on tuning and scale origins. More importantly, physics tells lay readers little about scales, for the same scale may be tuned in different ways, and different tunings may be considered the same scale, and some scales may have social or other non-physical origins. The main objection, however, is that the section was to large a summary of musical tuning and related articles.
Regarding the "Clarified and reorganized" section, since we're here, let's talk about it. What is unclear about the article as it now stands? How is it hard to read? Do you have a source which may suggest a better organization of the information, or provide definitions and clarification? Hyacinth 04:38, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)