Talk:Symbolism (arts)

Symbolist poetry largely begins with Les Fleurs du Mal (Flowers of Evil) by Charles Baudelaire, and Baudelaire, in turn, was deeply influenced in his literary theories by the poems and stories of Edgar Allan Poe, whom he translated into French. In this sense, Symbolism is the first major literary movement that had its roots in the United States of America.

An interesting theory but the corollary of which is underdetermined by the facts. The symbolist movement did not ultimately devolve purely from the work of Baudelaire, significant though he may have been. To what extent Baudelaire was influential (& by extension Poe) on the likes of Verlaine, Rimbaud, Mallarmé, etc can be debated ad nauseam, but certainly Baudelaire is no Poe clone and moreover symbolism as a form definitely pre-existed Poe. This kind of Americano-centric nonsense makes precisely the point I have reiterated over and over: it is the steady trickle of US Minitruth propaganda of the most revolting kind. user:sjc

The roots of Symbolism in the USA are striking mostly because so few literary movements or schools started here, especially in the 19th century. I am not at all certain that symbolism is a form; it is a school, a set of shared poetic aims, mannerisms, and stock tropes. Symbolism, in one sense, represents the continuation of the more gothic and pessimistic side of Romanticism, and a such Poe would merit a mention in any case. Almost all Symbolist poets I have metion Poe in their verse at one point or another, or allude to a Poe story or theme. ---Ihcoyc

I have no problem with Poe being cited as influential, and indeed I would say that the work of Baudelaire was to a great extent coloured by his reading and translations of Poe, but nowhere nearly as much as some critics would like to suggest. To suggest that Symbolism is a school however is to entirely misrepresent it. Symbolism represents a particular aesthetic take on things which is beyond the simplicitudes of allegiance and expediency: you either subscribe to the symbolist take or you don't, which is why poets who are capable of spanning the dichotomous chasm are such a rarity e.g. Marina Tsvetaeva. Symbolism, moreover, has obvious European antecedents which predate Poe such as e.g. Blake. user:sjc

FWIW, I sought to underline antecedents to Symbolism in the USA, not to promote the cultural primacy of the USA, but rather to suggest a counternarrative to the standard model of "American Literature," which is strongly biased in favour of social realism. The Symbolist stream flourished here --- what would all of those silent movie producers have done w/o Symbolist imagery? --- but the standard academic narrative says something else. Symbolism is more respected elsewhere in the Americas --- J. L. Borges owes much to Symbolism, as do Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Isabel Allende, and for that matter the Hernandez brothers --- but in Poe's own native land, our most "important" native writer is not given the respect he deserves. That was what I meant by seeking to magnify Poe as a source of Symbolism, not to promote some version of "everything was invented in the USA." --- Ihcoyc

I take on board what you are saying Ihcoyc. The only reason I was a bit tetchy is because it so commonly is the situation that US writers want to grab the credit for everything, including the signing of the Magna Carta, besides claiming the authorship of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles and the Epic of Gilgamesh :-). Borges is actually another interesting anomaly btw, half symbolist, half not. user:sjc

anglophone symbolists

not getting into the poe discussion here, but I scanned the original page and I just wanted to point out that there were English-speaking and -writing Symbolists more or less contemporary with the rest of the European symbolists. Two of them are Canadians, although the Americans like to try and annex them as well: Bliss Carmen and Charles G.D. Roberts (I could have the GD initials wrong but cross reference with animal stories and you'll find the right fellow.)

Astonished. hy

Probably should be added; I've tried to make it clear that although it began as a French movement, it was not exclusively French. Some of the more important writers were Belgians writing in French. I wonder if we have articles yet on Olive Custance, Max Beerbohm, Richard Le Gallienne, or Ernest Dowson; them and the Yellow Book crowd are the names I think of first when considering Symbolist writing in English. Smerdis of Tlön 18:01, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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The label "Symbolist poets" could/should be changed to "Symbolist writers" or "Symbolist authors." This would allow for the inclusion of Paul Adam, who wrote a few poems, but is better known for his novels. Remy de Gourmont would fit better as he is best known for his prose works. In either case, I would delete Jean Lorrain. He did publish some poems, but is principally a prose writer whose esthetic falls clearly outside of Symbolism.

I know that Lorrain hung out with the same crowd; there's a famous portrait of him painted by I think Fantin-Latour, a Symbolist painter. I would be sceptical that his work is within the mainstream of Symbolism, but poems by him appear in several Symbolist anthologies, including Delvaille's and the Houston's. Smerdis of Tlön 18:01, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)

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It may be a good idea to separate Symbolism in the arts and Symbolism as a literary movement. The two overlap in some ways but are different in many others. For example, the statement about Symbolist works having "a sense of the malign power of sexuality" doesn't hold for the literary movement.

Symbolism in literature is esthetically closer to many aspects of neoimpressionism than Symbolist painting.

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Delvaille's anthology is problematic to say the least. The scholarship of the preface leaves a good bit to be desired. Although Delvaille indicates the fluid nature of what Symbolism is, I don't believe he actually defines what it is. (Perhaps I missed something.)

Baudelaire is not a Symbolist. He provided the foundation for the esthetic and is the main precursor. Lautreamont is not a Symbolist. He too may have had some influence on the movement, but that is debatable. Jean Lorrain did hang out with some of the Symbolists, but, to my knowledge, never considered himself a Symbolist nor was he considered a Symbolist by the Symbolists. Renée Vivien can be said to be influenced by Symbolism (as the article on her judiciously states), but was not part of the movement.

In literature, it can be helpful to distinguish between a Symbolism as an esthetic and as a movement. The movement "formally" begins with Moréas' manifesto in 1886. The esthetic is formulated in part by Baudelaire in the 1850s. There are many writers who are not part of the movement, but who are influenced by the esthetic. I think that Vivien would best fit in such a category.

No literary movement has exact limits. This is certainly true for Symbolism. However, a critical consensus does exist about many authors. Many of Delvaille's judgments lie outside of this consensus. It would be preferable for a general article such as this to have it correspond as much as possible to mainstream understandings of Symbolism.

Symbolism in theatre

This article seems to cover the literature of the symbolists, but I would like to know why the theatre aspect hasn't been treated in this artical. I am talking about theatre directors, theatres dedicated to giving symbolist plays, symbolist performances, and symbolist "theatre language", not so much the theatre authors. I know this was a very small chapter of history, consisted of private theatres that met with failure, and yet for theatre students it's a chapter to be taken to consideration. Is there any reason why this aspect hasn't been included in this article?

Lack of information? I don't know a great deal about Symbolist theatre, apart from Pelleas et Melisande and Villiers de l'Isle-Adam's Axel. FWIW, his article is also a pitiful sub-stub. Smerdis of Tlön 02:03, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about it seeing I've been studying symbolisme in theatre.

Modernism template

I've added a template feel free to add new articles to it. Stirling Newberry 00:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)