Talk:The Matrix

Talk:The Matrix/Archive

Contents

1 Resolution? 2 Archive 3 "Matrixism" background 4 Literature 5 Symbols

Resolution?

There has been no response to my points above regarding Marxism and the Matrix. Do editors agree that it is now established that a) there is a Marxist analysis of the Matrix and b) that it is notable given reference to it in several newspapers and magazines and its inclusion in a book on the NY Times bestsellers list? Can we therefore have the article unprotected and add a section discussing the Marxist analysis of the Matrix which includes links to the aforementioned articles and a link to the MIM review as an example of the Marxist analysis of the film?

Many editors, particularly those who are fans of the film and who are opposed to Marxism, may not agree with the Marxist analysis - indeed I suspect that many of the editors here are offended by the mere existence of such an analysis and stridently oppose its validity - but all editors should now acknowledge that a) it is factual to state that there is such an analysis and b) that its notability has also been established. The way to deal with this is to include the analysis in a section of the article - if there are any notable writings opposing the Marxist analysis they should also be included. However, to deny that such an analysis even exists by censoring its mention in the article would be an unacceptable violation of NPOV in that it would be the exclusion of notable views because they contradict ones own. AndyL 16:07, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I reckon we should consider an "External Links" subcategory for "Notable philosophical analyses". Marxism's a significant enough philosophy for an external link to be justified, and it could include things like the Philosophy section of the Warner Brothers Matrix website. Sockatume 16:18, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Additionally, I'm sure the MIM link could have been justified, if the issue had been discussed before the page protection. As it happens, the user in question refused to discuss the issue until page protection had come into effect, which suggests their motives are somewhat disingenuous. I'm aware that Wikipedia is not a link repository, but the movie in question has enough of a philosophical twist to justify a few bits of further reading. Sockatume 16:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Which "user in question" is this? There had been active and civil discussion at the user talk pages of myself (User talk:Curps), User talk:TheGrza, User talk:Mista-X long before page protection was put in place. AndyL's claim otherwise is simply false. Regarding the Talk:The Matrix page, AndyL himself made no attempt to discuss anything there until after he applied page protection. -- Curps 01:28, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

Apologies, I wasn't aware that any inclusion/exclusion debate had been going on beforehand. I was only watching the Matrix Talk page, therefore all I saw occur was a revert scuffle, followed by a protect and then the debate beginning on this talk page. So my point of view whoever kept putting the MIM article back in was doing so with no attempt to discuss the issue. Sockatume 03:33, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

My solution: mention the best-selling book, with external link(s) to news articles, and leave out the MIM link (which would pale in comparison to such text). violet/riga (t) 17:28, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I would be fine not having the MIM link if the professor's article or a notable extract were online. As it's not, I believe the MIM review may be the most notable online example of a Marxist critique of the Matrix. I haven't searched exhaustively, however, and if someone can find another Marxist review online that may be preferable. The World Socialist Web Site (which has some well written reviews) only mentions the Matrix briefly in one article. There are threads on the Matrix in the LBO-Talk list . There is a review of the Matrix Reloaded in the British magazine Socialism Today The Matrix… Reloaded or overloaded? (http://www.socialismtoday.org/76/matrix.html) .AndyL

I will also assume that we have agreed that the refernce to Matrixism (http://www.geocities.com/matrixism2069) is worthy of inclusion as one of the impacts that the 'The Matrix' franchise has had.

Actually, we've all agreed on the contrary a long time ago. Now please stop vandalizing Wikipedia. — Phil Welch 04:14, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

It was never agreed upon. The reference to Matrixism as one of the impacts of The Matrix on pop culture is relevant here. Please end your personal "anti-cult" crusade.~Anonymous

Archive

I moved all previous content to an archive page as a way of putting this ridiculous dispute behind us. — Phil Welch 21:38, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

"Matrixism" background

A little background on our vandalism problem...

"Matrixism" was the topic of an article some months ago, based apparently upon a single Geocities web page. There is a notable lack of evidence that such a religion even exists, and as a result, Matrixism went to VfD. The result was "redirect to The Matrix", so the passages about "Matrixism" were added then.

At the time, I edited the passages to conform to NPOV and factuality standards, reflecting the unknown veracity of the claim, while a single anonymous vandal continued to revert and linkspam this article, List of religions, and New religious movement.

In the meantime, an RfC was posted for the "Matrixism" dispute. My compromise position of keeping a less-linkspammed, more accurate and neutral passage was questioned by most involved in the RfC, with almost unanimous consent to removing the reference entirely. I bowed to majority opinion and allowed the consensus to reign. This has not stopped our linkspammer, however, and many Wikipedians are vigilantly reverting his edits.

This matter has been listed at Wikipedia:Most_vandalized_pages#Specific_anonymous_vandals.

— Phil Welch 04:44, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Having monitored this topic for quite sometime it is evident that Phil Welch is conducting what amounts to a one man campaign to manipulate wikipedia into removing this reference. From the bizarre wording and linkage of some his post he exposed an extreme "anti-cult" bias. He continues his personal crusade and to deny his bias. ~Anonymous

I don't have an anti-cult bias. I just haven't seen any evidence Matrixism is notable. And I'm not even reverting you most of the time anymore. — Phil Welch 19:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Phil Welch also claims concensus where there was none. Further he knowingly is ignoring the majority opinion of a wikipedia vote the overwhelming result of which was to keep Matrixism re-directed here. ~Anonymous

Which vote are you referring to? The current RfD listing is about tied. — Phil Welch 19:35, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Literature

The second paragraph of Literature under Influences and interpretations could use a rewrite. It mentions a cinematic influence (The Terminator) when there is a seperate entry for those, refers to '...both films being inspired...' in such a way as to completely confuse the reader what films it is referring to, not to mention again being under literature, and most annoyingly to me, claiming 'artificial intelligence overthrowing or enslaving mankind' to be a theme of Frank Herbert's Dune, which is not the case. The Butlerian Jihad has been argued to be a religious persecution of intelligent machines, rather than, as his son Brian Herbert has interpreted and written in his books, a war against oppressing machines (or so I've heard, I have yet to read them). In any case it is only mentioned briefly and not really a theme of Dune.

I do not intend to rewrite it, partially because I am still new to Wikipedia, partially because I have nothing to replace it, but mostly because I don't want my head to get bitten off. Fëaluinix 23:14, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Seeing that nobody disagrees, I went ahead and edited it, despite previous rant. Fëaluinix 23:59, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I finished reading 1984 by George Orwell last night and the first thing I thought of when I finished was, that was The Matrix Trilogy done right. The parrelels between the machines and the inner party and how dialogue from the movie applys so well to the ideologies in the book is pretty astounding. Is this an often cited reference or what cos I cant find it in the entry, it seems like quite a glaringly obvious one.

Symbols

After watching The Matrix literally ten times (almost in a row - I'd just bought the DVD and I was sick so I had nothing else to do) I noticed a couple of minor themes in the movie that I think are interesting enough to deserve mention, but I'd like input on this before doing so because I'm not sure if that's just me... These are just the ideas I had, I just wanted to know if other people thought it would be worthwhile for me to make them better and more coherant, and add them to the actual article...

This only refers to the first Matrix movie - I've seen the others, but not recently enough to write about them.

Mirrors - there are many, many instances of reflective surfaces in the Matrix, and in all these cases something specific is being reflected. It also fits with the general theme of the movie in that the Matrix is a reflection of the real world. If you look at what mirrors generally represent in other literature, it also adds to the general theme.

Telephones - same is true of telephones... they're used to dial into the matrix, to contact one another inside the matrix and the operator outside the matrix, and they are the only way of getting out of the matrix. Again, the symbolism of a telephone adds meaning to the rest of the movie in general. Oracleoftruth 23:04, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

There's a really good bit about reflections in "The Matrix Revisited". They even managed to slip them into the score. Sockatume 03:25, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

This is really interesting, would deserve to be included. What about sunglasses? (just brainstorming, I don't mean to be sarcastic) --Eleassar777 11:13, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

Ooh, thanks! I've also noticed how everyone wears sunglasses - actually, they're mostly mirrored sunglasses, which is where a lot of my 'mirrors' idea came from. It seems that generally people think that it's a good idea (or at least not a bad enough idea to speak up against) so I'll add this section later on, I need to fix it up so it includes referances and makes sense. Oracleoftruth 03:30, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

This is original research, so disregard it until you can find an external source on this, but I've always considered the sunglasses to be a sort of protection. They're a filter for perception in the Matrix, protecting them from fully accepting the false world of the Matrix as real. Also, they shield the eyes from view, which is another form of protection. Notice that in the fights, when Morpheus loses his glasses he is vulnerable to Agent Smith, and later Smith and Neo both lose their glasses in their fight. — Phil Welch 20:47, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

I think I bunged in some comments to that effect in the article, dunno if they're still there though (not very encyclopedic in retrospect). They were protection in a literal sense as well: in some of the supplimentary materials (part of The Art of the Matrix, IIRC) it's said that the sunglasses were important eye protection for the actors during the lobby shootout. Sockatume 20:51, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

one shallow point about the telephones which amused me is the referencing that is making to Superman getting changed in phonebooths.