Talk:The Wealth of Nations
From Academic Kids
| Contents |
Outline of the Work
I removed this part because at the bottom there are links to very good online text of the work, and I don't see that this part adds much. It's just a skeleton.Outline of the Work
- "Introduction and Plan of the Work" - Smith introduces the work.
- Volume One - Covers many subjects relating to the evolution of material wealth in nations and communities.
- Book One - "Of the Causes of Improvement in the Productive Powers of Labour, and of the Order According to Which its Produce is Naturally Distributed Among the Different Ranks of the People " Covers productivity, commerce, prices and wages
- I Division of Labor.
- II On the origens of the division of labor - Smith contends that division of labor came about spontaneously. That is, it was not planned.
- III Division of Labor is limited by the extent of the Market.
- Book One - "Of the Causes of Improvement in the Productive Powers of Labour, and of the Order According to Which its Produce is Naturally Distributed Among the Different Ranks of the People " Covers productivity, commerce, prices and wages
- Book Two - capital.
- Capital, as described in the book is basically that which can be accumulated. For example wikipedians labor to produce an enduring work, the wikipedia. Sometimes capital is confused with property and property rights. But regardless of the nature of ownership, or lack thereof, capital constitutes a enduring product of labor which often eases people's lives. - 'Capital' is a modern term, the work constantly uses 'stock'.
- Book Three - Comparison of the evolution of material wealth in different nations. The policies and practices at heart.
- Book Two - capital.
- Volume Two - Covers "Political Economy"
- Book Four - The policies of Nations and their effect on individuals and the Nation as a whole.
- Book Five - Revenue of the State.
Evolution within this article
In previous revisions, the outline linked to articles - like "Wealth of Nations: Volume One". At present there isn't enough information to warrent such a structuring. But 'Nations' is a huge work, and as this article grows, will such a structuring make more sense?
- The entire content of the linked articles is now in the outline section of this article. Since it was only a few lines per article it wasn't useful to the reader to click the link only to read a single or few sentences that could have been included in the article. The best approach is to let the article grow and only break off into other articles as a section grows too large. Also, a few hints that may make your editing easier. You can use two single quotes ('') before and after text to italicize it and three single quotes (''') to bold it. - Tεxτurε 19:34, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
immigration control
Can someone shed some light on how Nations deals with this subject?
On general principle of non-interference/free-markets I agree.
But does Smith make a specific case regarding immigration control? -- Anon
Yes, he does. In Book I Chapter 10 Part 2, Smith devotes a fair amount of discussion to the Poor law of the time and its effect on the free movement of labour between parishes within England. Basically people couldn't move from the parish in which they were settled to another without owning a set amount of property, unless they had the permission of the receiving parishioners since parishioners were directly responsible for supporting the destitute of their parishes. This led to labour shortages in specific trades in specific parishes as well as wide variations in the price of labour between neighbouring parishes since parishioners didn't want to receive an immigrant whose family they might have to support with their taxes when he was out of work. The parallel between this parochial immigration control and modern national immigration control is exact and the consequences identical although on a larger scale. -- Derek Ross | Talk 14:28, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)
restructuring two sentences in introduction
- Asymmetry: Left-wing writer / right-wing politician - because that is more reflective of common occurance - though less symmetrical.
- re-arangement: merely for flow and clarity
- "pro-business" within quotes - because it is essentially a quote
- italics to emphasize A = B
Removal of material - uncited material from das Kapital
I have removed this from the article:
- Karl Marx critiqued Smith's ideas in Das Kapital and decried what he called capitalism on the grounds that powerful men seeking their own good will inevitably victimize the working class.
Ed, where in Kapital does Marx say this? Please provide a citation or even a quote!
To the best of my knowledge, Marx's engagement with Smith is much more specific and subtle. In the preface to the second German edition he describes Kapital as a necessary sequal to Smith's book!
Sometimes Marx's view of Smith is mixed: he praises Smith for calliong attention to labor-power as the source of value of commodities, but faults Smith for not seeing labor as a normal activity. Elsewhere he praises Smith for recognizing that the value of currency is determined byt the relationshi between the currency in circulation and the commodities in circulation, but faults Smith for viewing money (really, gold and silver coin) as any other commodity.
I know of two more basic criticisms of Smith. Marx criticizes Smith (and Ricardo) for assuming that average prices equal the average value of commodities. He also criticizes Smith's theory of primitive accumulation, and suggests that primitive accumulation really comes from the separation of producers from the means of production. This really is a profound criticism (whehter you agree with it or not) but it is not really the same as what you said. And even in this "criticism" (which is NOT a criticism of Smith's claims about the morality of capitalism but rather a criticism of Smith's analysis of capitalist accumulation and economic growth in the 18th century), marx approvingly quotes Smith, who wrote "Whenever the legislature attempts to regulate the differnces between masters and their workmen, its counsellors are always the masters."
Anyway, Ed, please provide the citation and a brief quote if possible of Marx making the criticism of Smith you call attention to, SR
- Lighten up, SR. It was just a stub, intended to stimulate a more-knowledgable writer to finish the article. Since you know so much about it, please incorporate your talk into the article while I stand back spellbound with admiration (no sarcasm intended, honest). --Ed
- Ed, no sarcasm taken! :-) BUT, the reason I didn't put this in the article is, frankly, I think it is too tangential; it's good to have a stuf on Smith and I bet there could be a very good, and very long, article on Smith without going into the details of Marx's work -- details that I just think are more appropriate to an artricle on Marx. In any event, I wasn't trying to be bitchy in asking for a citation for your characterization of Marx's critique. I assume that if you feel that you can refer to something Marx wrote in Capital in an encyclopedia article, then that is because you read it in Capital. All I am asking for is the citation.
- Now, I do not want to presume -- and I apologize if what I am about to say offends you, because what I wreote above was on the assumption that you have read Capital and remember having read this critique. But if you haven't -- if you haven't read Capital -- i simply do not see how you could include a discussion of it, even a very brief on, in an encyclopedia article. I take it for granted that Wikipedians should make contributions on what they know about, and not on what they do not know about. Since you have made this stubb, I assume you have read The Wealth of Nations. Since you cite Marx's Capital, I asume you have read it. If you haven't, I just do not understand how you can risk misrepresenting something (and yourself).
- So now I will apologize once more if I am suggesting something wrong and insulting about you. As I said, I do assume you have read these books, and if you remember something I do not, you would be doing many people, and me most of all, a favor if you would find the quote or page citations -- SR
Without anybody noticing, The Wealth of Nations became a collection of quotes selected to prove that Smith was against corporations.--AN
Yes, I just noticed that. However when I read the Wealth of Nations, I got the impression that Smith really *was* against corporations, cartels, etc, so I'm not too bothered about that. The real problem is that it unbalances the article since it isn't really about the Wealth of Nations now. It's about Smith's attitude to employers instead. -- Derek Ross
I got the same impression from the book. Isn't Smith's book, in great part, about his attitude to employers? That should be reflected through quotes.Lir 10:36 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
I think that it should be reflected but Smith's book was about so much more. Its discussion of how a real day to day economy works is still one of the most readable ones about. At the least this article should contain a summary of the chapters discussed in the book. The discussions of what gives money value, why division of labour is economically efficient, why chambers of commerce are bad and how rents work should be much more widely known and each deserve some discussion in the article. -- Derek Ross
Also the influence this book had on everyone from Marx to Milton Friedmann needs to be mentioned. This was a very influential book -- Derek Ross
I removed the folowing from the article until it can be reworked. My reasons are the following:
1) an encyclopedia should present an account of current debates not an author's own views. The following reads as if it is the author's own views. If I am wrong at it really reflects a current and well-known scholarly interpretation of Smith, it should be identified with its proponoents.
2) the passage is mostly a string of quotes from Smith (with no page numbers). This is inappropriate to an encyclopedia article. The article should summarize the work and contribution of Smith, and if there are debates, summarize the debates. It should not itself be argumentative, and it should not just be a colection of quotes. Slrubenstein
As is true with every work that is considered of importance,
many interpretations can be made, specially by selecting
isolated paragraphs.
The following is one of such interpretations.
Smith against modern economy?
Some argue that Smith was arguing against modern economics due to the proliferation of statements throughout the book which argue against the very notion of a corporation or corporate entity.
- In John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge's _The Company -- A Short History of a Revolutionary Idea_, the idea of the limited-liability joint-stock corporation is presented as a development that didn't take off until the mid-19th century. Before then, the preferred kind of operation was owner-operated businesses. Because of scandals like the South Sea Bubble, there was a long standing bias against joint-stock corporations with its separation of onwership and management. (And the problem persists today with Enron, Worldcom, etc.) -- User:EmRick
It should be noted that capitalism is derived from mercantilism rather than something that replaced mercantilism. In that light, one wonders whether Smith really is the "father of capitalism", as is commonly stated.
Smith says, "Is improvement in the circumstance of the lower ranks of people to be regarded as an advantage or as an inconveniency to society? The answer seems plain. Servants, labourers, and workmen make up the far greater part of every society. What improves the circumstances of the greater part can never be regarded as an inconveniency. No society can be flourishing and happy, of which the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable."
Smith notes, "The pretence that corporations are necessary is without any foundation." although at this point he was refering to incorporated guilds and similar monopolistic organisations rather than companies in the modern sense.
Smith adds, "When masters combine they commonly enter into a private agreement not to give more than a certain wage. The complaints of workmen are perfectly well founded. The rent of land is a monopoly. It is not proportioned to the landlord nor his holdings, but to what the renter can afford."
Smith goes on, "Nothing can be more absurd than the doctrine of the balance of trade upon which almost all regulations of commerce are founded. The sneaking arts of tradesman are erected into political maxims for the conduct of an empire. Commerce, which ought to be a bond of union and friendship, has become the most fertile source of discord and animosity. The violence and injustice of the rulers of mankind is an ancient evil. Their interest is directly opposite to that of the great body of people."
Smith explains, "More want employment than can get it. Many are willing to take it upon lower terms than ordinary and thus the wages sink. A considerable number are thrown out of employment each year, who must then bid in order to find work, thus lowering wages to levels of bare subsistence. There are funds in the hands of the employers of industry sufficient to maintain a great number of people."
Smith continues, "The careers of scholar and beggar are nearly synonymous. The public would derive great benefit if the schools and colleges were more reasonable than at present."
I don't understand the switch in tense of:
- It was written for the average educated individual of the 18th century rather than for other economists and is thus much more useful for those interested in an introduction to economics than many more recent books on the subject.
Should you say "and was thus much more useful"? Or are you saying this book was so well written that the ideas remain relevant today? When you say "recent books" do you mean recent with respect to books in 2004 or with respect to books in 1776? I would imagine there are better introductions to economics today. -- User:EmRick
I meant:
- It was written for the average educated individual of the 18th century rather than for other economists and is thus much more useful for the average educated individual of the 21st century interested in an introduction to economics than many of the books written on the subject since 1776.
I maintain that it is so well written that one can forgive the occasional ideas which have been superseded by later research. It may well be the case that there are now many better introductions to economics as far as the technical issues are concerned but there are few, if any, introductions which are such a pleasure to read. -- Derek Ross | Talk
The Famous "Invisible Hand Quote"
The previous version of the article cited the invisible hand and the butcher, baker, and brewer as all coming from Book 1 Chapter 2, when, in fact, the invisible hand quote comes from Book 4 Chapter 2. I inserted the quote so readers would not hunt in Book 1 Chapter 2 and never find it. I hope that is ok with everyone.
Removing "mischaracterized/politicized" quote...
"The Wealth of Nations is often mischaracterized and politicized. Many people are confident in their opinions regarding the author, the work, and the subject matter, yet have never read it."
- This can be said of dozens of books, perhaps hundreds. Consider, for instance, the Bible. Are there not many people who are "confident in their opinions" about the Bible yet have never actually read it? The Koran, the Torah, the United States Consitution, the Declaration of Independence, the Gettysburg Address... need I go on? This statement can be applied to just about any work of literature to which there is a modicum of dissent. Putting it here makes the article no more relevant, and it does nothing to engage the reader regarding the work itself. I propose it be removed.
Considering your examples, I would see that these are all widely read documents. Much more widely read than the WoN. Thus it is not surprising that there is "a modicum of dissent" about the interpretation of their contents. However since the number of people who have read them is comparable to the numbers dissenting, it is, by and large, informed dissent. However I take your point that there are a few documents like the WoN for which the number of people who have an opinion about it dwarfs the number who have read it. That is quite unusual and therefore worth noting in the articles of any documents of this type. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:15, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)
Division of labor and the invisible hand
I know that the discussion of the "invisible hand" in the article follows the standard interpretation, but given that the phrase is only used once in the book, and given that Smith is pretty vague about the other cases to which it applies, can we really state so confidently that the various examples discussed (e.g. the butcher and the baker) are instances of the invisible hand at work? A more radical interpretation (which I'm not necessarily endorsing) is that Smith was talking about the dangers of British capitalists investing and importing from abroad, and was (rather wishfully) hoping that their patriotism would prevent them from doing so.
Also, there is no mention here of Smith's more negative remarks about the division of labour. He certainly thought it led to greater economic efficiency, but he also had misgivings about the humanitarian consequences of people working highly repetitive and specialised jobs; these aren't discussed in the article. Cadr 14:40, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)
