Talk:Tourette syndrome
From Academic Kids
In a few cases, complete remission occurs after adolescence, and in many cases total remission occurs after the age of 40.
I got a bit confused by this sentence: is there some technical difference between "complete remission" and "total remission" ? Perhaps the sentence should use only one of the terms. --Ejrh 14:56, 21 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Is there any relation between aphasia and Tourette syndrome? EmRick 15:37, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- Both are treated very accessibly in The man who mistook his wife for a hat. I recommend this book, especially if you're interested in either of those conditions. I don't think Dr. Sacks mentioned any connection, but I may have missed it.--Polyparadigm 22:35, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Being someone who has Tourette's syndrome, I think that the comparison of an urge to do a tic to an itch is not nearly as accurate as a comparison to the urge to yawn. I will make that modification, and if anyone disagrees with it, feel free to revert it. Cessen 19:58, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Thank you! This is the sort of contribution that makes Wikipedia invaluable. Welcome to Wikipedia. -- Karada 21:50, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am suspicious of the sentence that begins "TS affects up to 1.13% of children with a wide range of severity..." There was a time when Tourette syndrome was only diagnosed when the symptoms were extreme and plainly unwanted by the patient. Lately it is a suspiciously convenient diagnosis for children, usually boys, who might sometimes enjoy swearing or self-conscious nervous habits. I am not a "spare the rod, spoil the child" type; I certainly think that adults should be patient with hyperactive children. But is Tourette syndrome really the right explanation for most of these cases? And how can it make sense to give the incidence to two decimal places; how can you know that it's up to 1.13%, and not up to 1.14% or up to 1.12%? It looks like some people are replacing parental common sense with bad science. --Greg Kuperberg 13:46, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I can't say I care for your point of view on the matter - whether or not you agree with doctors' diagnoses, or people's parenting methods, has really no bearing on this article or its merits whatsoever. However, you do raise a legitimate point - the figure of 1.13% does sound suspiciously precise to be altogether correct. I'm no statistician, but I don't think I've ever heard of a medical condition being pinpointed down to two decimal places in diagnosis. Can anybody verify/correct this figure based on recent evidence please? - Vaelor 14:37, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
My real concern is a drifting definition of Tourette syndrome that would weaken both Wikipedia and general public understanding. Without verifiable etiology, there can't be any consensus on how to define TS. It doesn't look like the etiology is ever confirmed, only the symptoms. In that case, just by changing the threshold of how bad the tics have to be, claiming a prevalence of 10% is as fair as claiming a prevalence of .1%. Any statement about prevalence should warn that it depends on the threshold used to define the disease.
On that note let me try to restate my previous objection. The paragraph in question goes on at length about popular misconceptions about Tourette syndrome. It has a "blame the media" tone which misses an important point: If there are popular misconceptions, they will also interfere with diagnosis. If bystanders believe that Tourette syndrome is defined as excessive swearing, then certainly there are parents who want this diagnosis in their children, and probably there are doctors who accede to these parents. The way that a condition is diagnosed does ultimately affect its definition. It is fair to say that bad movies have been irresponsible about TS. But the article should not imply that these movies stray from objective expertise, when the latter does not exist. --Greg Kuperberg 15:26, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Greg, I can't even begin to relate to this opinion, so forgive me if I don't address it directly for fear I'd just end up saying something ignorant and offensive and possibly starting a flame war. In short though, granted, the only way at this time to diagnose Tourette's is per assessment of the symptoms, and as a result, this can lead to incorrect diagnoses, to both ends of the scale.
- The phrase "incorrect diagnosis" implies that there is some way to decide, in principle, whether or not a diagnosis is correct. There isn't. People are no closer to deciding what is or is not Tourette syndrome than they are to deciding what is or is not art, what is or is not pornography, or what is or is not justice. Maybe one day people will give "Tourette syndrome" a relatively precise meaning; or maybe not. --Greg Kuperberg 17:15, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- It sounds to me like you're not so much concerned about the information in this article about Tourette's Syndrome being accurate, but more that apparently, because a scientific method of officially diagnosing TS - something concrete, like a CAT scan or x-ray, some kind of hard evidence - hasn't been discovered yet, that must mean Tourette's doesn't exist. I'm no doctor or scientist, but as far as I'm concerned, they know what causes TS, they know what the symptoms of TS are, they know how to medicate it, and as of February, it looks like they now know how to cure it. So frankly, though a more concrete method of proving a diagnosis might make for more reliable information on the syndrome being available to the public and help counteract the unusually high levels of ignorance surrounding the syndrome compared to say, Down Syndrome or Parkinson's Disease, I don't see from where I stand that coming up with a more scientific way of diagnosing the syndrome on paper is anywhere as important as coming up with effective means to combat the symptoms.
- Personally, from where I'm standing, if I had to choose between research dollars going towards scientifically proving that I have Tourette's Syndrome on paper, or not almost biting off my own tongue in the morning when my tics go into overdrive after having been dormant for the few hours sleep I managed to get in, I'd choose the latter. Because whether one would require a certain "level of symptoms" to be present in order to be "officially diagnosed" with TS, or whether one doctor calls it Tourette's when another would call it something else, or whether there really is no such thing as TS and the symptoms are just the result of a combination of other problems, whatever the case may be, the symptoms are real, and they can be very disruptive. Believe me, I don't approve of overzealous parents claiming their kid has Tourette's just because he actually has ADHD and won't stop yelling swear words, but in my humble opinion, better that than have the syndrome discredited entirely, and have thousands of people who need treatment be told that they're just schizophrenic, or attention seekers, or need "the Devil driven out of them". Remember, there was a time when we didn't know how to scientifically identify cancer, or Multiple Sclerosis, or Alzheimer's Disease, or prove that the world actually isn't flat, and the sun doesn't revolve around it, but these things were studied and proven with time. Just because mankind hasn't discovered something yet, doesn't mean it's undiscoverable. - Vaelor 14:31, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- In my extensive experience though, I've found that more doctors are inclined to misdiagnose that somebody does not have Tourette's Syndrome when in fact they do, than vice versa. However, this could of course be different in other parts of the world. As for the article, it states that some movies imply that the only symptom of TS is coprolalia, which is not the case, hence I see nothing incorrect about the statement. If you have contrasting factual information to provide, then please feel free to edit the article - that's what Wikipedia is all about, after all. - Vaelor 16:06, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Tourette syndrome does exist, but...
I understand completely that Tourette syndrome exists. I have never doubted it. I believe in scientific explanations of the world and I have seen obvious cases of people with uncontrollable tics. It is only reasonable to call this Tourette syndrome. I also believe in basic human sympathy and I would be very glad if the medical community found an effective treatment for involuntary tics in general, or for specific classes of them. If you have Tourette syndrome, then really, you have my sympathy.
However, that does not mean that Tourette syndrome has a fixed, objective definition. Art, pornography, justice, and democracy also exist, but they have no fixed definition either. What would your reaction be if someone said that 1.13% of television programs are pornographic? I would hope that you would be skeptical. I would hope that you would be equally skeptical of claims that TV pornography is "underdiagnosed" or "overdiagnosed". Would that mean that you excuse pornography?
You say that, while you don't approve of overzealous parents who bend the definition of Tourette syndrome, you would prefer that to discrediting the disease entirely. How would you like both together? It is very unfortunate for sufferers of Tourette syndrome that its definition is malleable. People who try to bend the definition, often people who also deny that it can be bent, have unwittingly done the most to discredit diagnosis. Skeptics are not the problem, because there is no organized campaign against diagnosis.
For these reasons I would want the definition in Wikipedia to reflect common sense and limitations of knowledge, rather than to be officious or defensive.
--Greg Kuperberg 15:20, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Oh, on that point, I couldn't agree with you more. I said from the first moment you brought the point of the statistic up here that I agreed it seemed suspicious, and if you or anybody else can find a more accurate way to word that sentence, I for one would appreciate it. I didn't think much of it when I first came across it, but 1.13% does sound to me like a number somebody just made up.
- I agree with you on the definitions issue also, but as I said, these things take time. Art, pornography, justice, democracy - these are subjective concepts, and will doubtless always remain open to opinion and interpretation. Though I see the connection you're trying to draw, I think that putting Tourette's Syndrome in the same category is a little inaccurate. One might phrase the question, "What is art?" and get a dozen highly contrasting answers from as many people, as diverse as if you asked the question "How do you measure/define art?". However, the question "What is Tourette's Syndrome?" is a simple black and white question with a straight answer available - although there will still be the grey area when you come to "How do you measure/define Tourette's Syndrome?". What Tourette's Syndrome is, is no more a matter of opinion than what cancer is, or what diabetes is. However, a definitive scientific way of measuring and solidly identifying the syndrome in the human body has not been discovered yet. Neither has a cure for cancer, but that doesn't mean the medical community is going to give up and concede that there's no such thing. Unlike art, pornography, justice, democracy, and other such subjective concepts, a scientific method of definitively identifying Tourette's Syndrome in the human brain will be discovered eventually, I'm sure. However, until that has been done, you're right, information on Tourette's Syndrome such as this Wikipedia article probably shouldn't make claims as to statistics of diagnoses without some form of proof or explanation as to what method of measurement produced that figure. - Vaelor 14:05, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- I did some hunting and some Googling, and I can't seem to find that 1.13% figure anywhere.
- The fact sheet from NIH has a much more realistic estimate of the number affected, and I'm going to update it in a bit to reflect that figure instead.
- Carrilyn 16:40, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Motor tics and Chronic Tic Disorders?
In looking over this article, I did notice an emphasis on vocal tics when they're only half of the disorder; motor tics are also symptoms. They can be muscle spasms, involuntary hand gestures, or other things. I only know about this because I have Chronic Tic Disorder (http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/chrontic.htm), which is very similar to TS, except I don't get vocal tics at all; I have involuntary muscle spasms in my upper body. I'm hesitant to make edits myself, but perhaps some information on the chronic tic disorders (which are, as my neurologist explained to me, TS, only missing one of the two types of tics, motor or vocal) and motor tics could be included.
-- a brand-new, harried and slightly confused Ealusaid
Shouldn't Howard Hughes be added to the 'famous people' list?
