Talk:Xiongnu

Though I am no historian, but I really question the explanation of 奴 in this article. The term 奴 simply means slaves. Just like in Chinese Ming history, 倭寇 refers to the Japanese thieves, but no one would try to explain the term 寇 as a some kind of tribes. I may be wrong, but I am not convinced by this article either. Can some scholars confirm this? Kowloonese 22:13, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have the same question in mind too!wshun 22:25, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is no attempt to translate Nu (奴) as tribes, rather the author has attempted to explain that Xiongnu means the slaves of the ferocious ones and that these slaves actually consisted of many different peoples. It is nonetheless quite confusing and the article does need re-working. Anyone who has time to phrase it better should give the re-working a shot. Also some of the Characters need to have Pinyin or Wade Giles transliterations.

Kaz

This page looks a little mess. :o --Gboy 06:18, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It looks too daunting to tidy up but taking away the Korean & adding wg or py would be a start

How would Uighurs, Gokturks, Jurchens and Khitans all come under the suzerainty of the Xiongnu? This page needs a serious rework. kt2 06:32, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The for-runners of those peoples are obviously meant but this needs clearer expression. At least it is clear that the Nu tribes under the Xiong were actually a pretty mixed-up group.

One explanation about the origin of the word Nu (奴), is that Nu was once the name of the tribe and later it became synonymous with "slave". --Kvasir 09:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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It would make this unreadable entry a bit more accessible if the Chinese could be translated. And transiaxartesia ('beyond the something-or-other') isn't universally recognizable geography.Wetman 07:43, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes if anyone knows which English terms correspond to the Chinese names or could at least give a correct Pinyin transliteration (I can only give them from Korean) alongside the characters it would be useful. I discovered the full geographical description of Transiaxartesia was deleted in December by someone who thought it was something to do with role-playing. I don't remember much about what it said, but do know that it was the land beyond the Jaxartes river. If the person who wrote that entry (or the one who deleted it) could put the info back under the renamed link it would be useful.

Rewrite

This article seems to be based on the contention that the Xiongnu were synonomous with the Huns. This theory has been discredited in the academic world for some time. It keeps referring to the "Xion" and their "nu" - which seems very far-fetched. The basis for the Chinese term "Xiongnu" is still contentious and should not be treated as fact. The article then moves onto a discussion of "Hu", sometimes not directly related to the Xiongnu. I'm going to attempt a rewrite. --Yu Ninjie 04:29, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Boy, that article needs it! BTW, "Xion" is a typo, isn't it? (I'm a bit unsure because there are non-Han pronunciations like 休麻 Xoima.) — Sebastian 05:31, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether if it's typo. Maybe the writer meant "Xiong"? --Yu Ninjie 06:19, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. — Sebastian 06:55, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

One should note that the word 匈 is pronounced /hUN/ in Cantonese, a language reputably older than Mandarin. It's reasonable that this sound is preserved in an older language. So yes, I do see a connection between the Xiong-nus and the Huns. Whether they were they same people or that the chinese confused them to be the same that's another debate. --Kvasir 09:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pronounciations of Xiongnu names

All Xiongnu names and terms are Chinese transliterations. Often the characters representing Xiongnu names have pronounciations quite different to their modern pronounciations. An example is Modun (冒頓), the great unifier of the Xiongnu tribes. The annotated notes to the Shiji says that the first character of his name should be pronounced "mo" (p. 2889 of the Zhonghua Shuju edition), and not "mao" as is the modern usage. Similarly, the Xiongnu term for chief consort (閼氏) is noted to be pronounced "yanzhi" instead of Yanshi.

So even when an error of transliteration from Chinese to English on my part seems obvious, please don't change it unless you've consulted the relevant historical source. --Yu Ninjie 06:40, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

liu song

"After the fall of the Western Jin in 317, the southern Xiongnu succeeded in establishing the first alien dynasty in Chinese history, known to history as the Liu Song (劉宋)."

This is not correct, Liu Yu (劉裕), the founder of Liu Song, is not of Xiongnu origin. He is somewhat related to the royal family of Han dynasty, according to Chinese history.--Guangyiwang 00:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)