Talk:Articles 2 and 3 of the Constitution of Ireland

I have temporarily removed some text refering to the citizenship amendment. This is because the text talks as if the amendment to the constitution has already been made, however, although it is only a formality, the amendment wont be made until it is signed into law by the President. It is possible this has happened already but as far as i'm aware it hasnt.

There are currently a series of Wikipedia articles on each Irish constitutional amendment. To add to this list ive created a draft on the most recent amendment which is here. However im not going to add the article to Wikipedia until i'm sure that the amendment has actually become law.

Once the article is ready to go perhaps people would consider merging detailed information on the citizenship amendment with this article rather than adding it to the "Articles 2 and 3" article which should only really contain a short summary.

Iota 15:55, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Do what you want, but some of the changes I made should go into your new article, including the fact that the "non-native" was in fact living in Wales and went to Northern Ireland on legal advice to give birth.
In this article, the DUP opposition to the new Articles 2 and 3 should go before the Twenty-seventh Amendment in the "Modern Controversy" section as it predates it. The UK & Irish Governments' joint statement also needs to go into this article. --Henrygb 00:14, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Bunreacht na hÉireann"

The prominant use of the term "Bunreacht na hÉireann" for "Constitution of Ireland" is somewhat excessive and unrealistic. The former term, Irish, is rarely used in any part of Ireland except as in introductory texts and sentences in history lectures on the topic. Djegan 19:56, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Six Counties/Northern Ireland/Ulster

Please provide evidence to back up your assertion that the Irish government has a policy of referring to "Northern Ireland" as "the six counties". Also, the only media outlets that use the term "six counties" are minority nationalist papers such as An Phoblacht and Daily Ireland. Demiurge 14:49, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


"Northern Ireland" is a dreadful abuse of geographic nomenclature. I don't believe Wikipedia should perpetuate the strictures that have been self-imposed by newspapers when referring to the six counties.

Lapsed Pacifist 14:56, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it is the term used almost universally except for minorities on both sides. It's used by many nationalists and unionists alike, by the British and Irish governments alike, by the BBC and RTÉ alike, by the Irish News and the Belfast Telegraph alike, even by the United Nations [1] (http://www.un.org/works/goingon/ireland/ireland.html). It may be aesthetically offensive to you, but it's the closest to a NPOV name available. "Six Counties" is most definitely nowhere near NPOV. (plus "six counties" is geographically inaccurate as well since 1973, but I suppose "twenty-six local council areas" doesn't have quite the same ring to it :) ) Demiurge 15:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The Irish government uses the term sporadically, and never to nationalist audiences. RTÉ avoids its use, as does the Irish News and many Irish papers, not just the two previously mentioned. I believe the term is far from NPOV, but I have not edited it in places I believed it apt. The counties have remained exactly where they were, even after 1973. I hope this has assuaged some of your concerns.

Lapsed Pacifist 15:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

  • The Irish government uses "Northern Ireland" regularly [2] (http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/exemption_from_irish.html?search=northern), the only uses of the phrase "six counties" in the .gov.ie domain appear to be transcripts of questions asked by SF TDs [3] (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22six+counties%22+site%3A.gov.ie&btnG=Google+Search). There are 20,900 Google hits for "northern ireland" on site:.gov.ie versus 2,560 hits for "six counties" on the same domain.
  • RTÉ: a search for "Northern Ireland" on the RTÉ website [4] (http://apollo.rte.ie/search.jsp?SortDate=false&query=%22northern+ireland%22&Submit=GO) returns 4647 hits, versus just 19 for "six counties" [5] (http://apollo.rte.ie/search.jsp?query=%22six+counties%22) (and some of those are spurious)
  • The Irish News: "WEATHER experts last night predicted a cooler start to the week after Northern Ireland sweltered in the blazing summer sun yesterday." [6] (http://www.irishnews.com/). Right on the front page.

How is a term used by only a minority of nationalists preferable to a term used by many nationalists, many (most?) unionists, the Irish and British governments, the vast majority of media outlets in the Republic, Britain and NI, and even the United Nations?

Demiurge 15:48, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I stated that "Northern Ireland" was not the favoured term of the Irish government and RTÉ. I did'nt say that the six counties was the preferred term. By all means use another.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So which other term do they favour?

  • RTÉ: "the North" (http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22the+north%22+site%3Arte.ie&btnG=Search): 998 results (some spurious) "Northern Ireland" (http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22northern+ireland%22+site%3Arte.ie&btnG=Search): 4310 results
  • Irish government: "the North" (http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22the+north%22+site%3A.gov.ie&btnG=Search): 14,800 results (again, some spurious), "Northern Ireland" (http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=%22northern+ireland%22+site%3A.gov.ie&btnG=Search): 20,900 results

Demiurge 16:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I am surprised. (By the way, one of your RTÉ links is incorrect.) The term "Northern Ireland" is still misleading, and I believe it should be avoided when possible.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:43, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

RTÉ link is fixed now. But you agree that "Northern Ireland" (even though it is arguably geographically incorrect by a few miles) is the closest thing we have to an NPOV name, being the most widely used across all sides (Irish government, British government, RoI media, British media, nationalist media in NI, unionist media in NI, United Nations)? And it's definitely more NPOV than "six counties" (which is only used by supporters of Sinn Féin and related groups, and which has its own problems with geographical accuracy)?

Demiurge 16:52, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)


What is geographically inaccurate about the Six Counties? That is exactly what they are.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Except the six counties were broken up and replaced by twenty-six "local council areas" in 1973. Yes, it's a small insignificant nitpick, but so is the few miles of the Republic that is north of "Northern" Ireland.

Demiurge 17:23, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Politically, the six counties ceased to be individual administrative areas as part of a British shake-up of local government. Anyone familiar with Irish articles (start with the county articles themselves) will know that this did not affect the counties themselves, nor the array of organisations that use their boundaries for internal administration, nor the tens of thousands of people who support their county teams.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:47, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You two have done a lot of talking here - but I think it goes without saying that the official term is always the preferred option to make up or agenda driven terms. The "six counties" of Northern Ireland have long ceased to have administrative effect and are only ceremonial. Djegan 18:17, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If people are not happy with the status-quo of Northern Ireland then you can raise a vote for moving on the article! Djegan 18:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So, LP, are we agreed that "Northern Ireland" is a less POV/more neutral name than "Six Counties"? Can I get your agreement to revert the changes you made?

Demiurge 18:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It is not my intention to move the article. I still contend that "Northern Ireland" is a POV and inaccurate term for the region being discussed. The issue is not whether or not each of the individual six counties are administrative divisions, which no-one has tried to argue. Nor is it my intention to change every mention of "Northern Ireland" to the Six Counties. I have often used other terms. My contention was that it should be avoided when possible. Obviously there are many cases where it would be confusing not to use the term "Northern Ireland", especially to readers not familiar with Irish politics (the best example being the name of the article). The "official name" argument carries very little water.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Northern Ireland, with a capital "N", can hardly be said to be pov. Djegan 19:20, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
And "six counties" isn't a POV term? Why should we replace one widely accepted and internationally/legally recognized term which is used widely by both sides (as I've demonstrated above) with another heavily loaded term which is used almost exclusively by republicans? Just because you say the official name argument "carries little water" doesn't make it so, you're going to have to explain why we shouldn't call the place the same thing as the Irish government, the British government, the European Union, the United Nations, and even the Northern Ireland Executive (were it around) call it.Demiurge 19:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My tuppence worth is that the term "six counties" is a non NPOV as using "Ulster" to describe the same area. Northern Ireland seems to me to be the best term to use. Philip Baird Shearer 19:34, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Most of Ulster" would have the same accuracy as the Six Counties. Feel free. The "official name" argument is weak because of the nature of the political dispute. Again, I believe Wikipedia should not be constrained by ritual.

Lapsed Pacifist 20:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"the nature of the political dispute" has nothing to do with it when the majorities on both sides agree that Northern Ireland is the correct name. Again, only a specific group of people (mostly associated with one particular political party) uses your preferred phrase of "six counties". Everyone else, nationalist and unionist, British, Irish and international, calls it Northern Ireland. Demiurge 21:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Agreed, quite frankly this need to change links is strange to say the least (i am trying to restrain my language here). With respect, LP, your arguement that the "official name" is pov or inappropriate does not hold much water either. You just need to accept that Northern Ireland is the official name, very widely recognised, and that many other terms cited are pov, by default. If you are still not convinced I suggest that in the first instance that you lobby the respective national and international bodies for a name change and in the second instance you submit a request for moving the article to the new name rather than painstaking transfers which will only in due course be reverted by people who care little of what has been discussed here. Djegan 22:13, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will not support a name change as it will cause unnecessary confusion. I'm not disputing what the region's "official" name is, I am questioning the need to use it slavishly. I am not insisting that the six counties should be used in every instance. I'm not convinced that all of the groups you refer to "agree" that "Northern Ireland" is the "correct" name. One example is the SDLP.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If the SDLP think that "Northern Ireland" is the incorrect name, then they should tell their webmaster (http://www.sdlp.ie/) (headline at top of page) Demiurge 23:03, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

They certainly should. Perhaps, as I have suggested we do, they use the term online so as not to confuse visitors to their site who might not be familiar with the unique political situation. I believe they use alternate terms in speeches and interviews.

Lapsed Pacifist 23:19, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Not in any of the speeches and interviews published on their website they don't: six counties (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22six+counties%22+site%3Asdlp.ie&btnG=Google+Search): 2 results Northern Ireland (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22northern+ireland%22+site%3Asdlp.ie&btnG=Google+Search) 996 results. It's clear that "Northern Ireland" is a perfectly acceptable term as far as the SDLP are concerned. In any case, nice to see you're now admitting that "six counties" is confusing compared to "northern ireland". Demiurge 08:18, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Using anything other than "Northern Ireland", whether it be the unionist term "Ulster" or the nationalist term "Six Counties" is against NPOV. If you want to use a geographic accuracy argument, then why don't you go to Talk:Virginia and propose it be moved to East Virginia? Morwen - Talk 11:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well Northern Ireland is a term used by both sides, internationally accepted and the official name. Should we start referring to the Republic of Ireland as the 26 Non British Counties of the British Isles? Ben W Bell 13:19, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Additionally the use of Northern Ireland is used in the Good Friday Agreement, signed and endorsed by both the British and Irish governments, and most political parties including the SDLP and Sinn Fein. Ben W Bell 13:27, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I distinctly recall the anger of many unionists and unionist politicians when their Deputy First Minister Séamus Mallon refused point-blank to use the term "Northern Ireland" during his tenure. I believe his opposition was more about granting any form of legitimacy (implicit or explicit) to an entity he felt did not deserve it, rather than one based on geographical accuracy. It should be obvious that to remove all references to "Northern Ireland" in Wikipedia would be self-defeating. I have already stated this.

Lapsed Pacifist 13:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That's interesting. You've already tried it in the Royal Irish Constabulary article for a start. -- Necrothesp 14:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
He refused to use the term Northern Ireland, yet stood for and was elected to a body called the Northern Ireland Assembly. Smacks of double standards and hypocrisy to me. Anyway the point really is moot, the official name, most common name, and the used name is Northern Ireland. Ben W Bell 14:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Your recollection seems to be faulty, Seamus Mallon appears to have no problems with the term "Northern Ireland" in this speech (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:KUOl2DnLHJwJ:cain.ulst.ac.uk/events/peace/docs/sm3998.htm+%22seamus+mallon%22&hl=en). Demiurge 14:59, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, many unionist politicians were angered that he would not always use the term "Northern Ireland", believing his attitude showed disrespect for unionists. I don't contend he never used it (he certainly used it in speeches when members of the international community were present), but he definitely avoided it at other times. I don't understand how this makes him a hypocrite, the "official" name of the "Northern Ireland Assembly" was certainly not his doing.

Lapsed Pacifist 15:36, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Actually, that's exactly what you contended: "refused point-blank to use the term "Northern Ireland" during his tenure". In any case, he didn't prefer the term "six counties" instead, so even if Seamus Mallon had never uttered the phrase "Northern Ireland" in his life, it still wouldn't support your unilateral decision to replace "Northern Ireland" with "six counties". You might as well point to examples of Paisley calling the place "Ulster" to support your point. Demiurge 15:42, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I prefer to use the term Six Counties, but I believe Wikipedia would be the poorer if that was the only term used to describe the region. I believe the stance taken by the first Deputy First Minister of "Northern Ireland" is indicative of a problem with "official" nomenclature.

Lapsed Pacifist 15:58, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But the term "six counties" has much greater problems with cross-community acceptance (and is not the official name, as is the Wikipedia convention, and you yourself have admitted that "six counties" is confusing), therefore it should not be used. I'm sure there are people here who would like to throw in references to "Ulster" but they're not going to get their way either. Demiurge 16:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are many instances where reference is made to "Northern Ireland", when Ulster would be more appropriate. You're misrepresenting my comments. I acknowledged that there are certain places where, if the term Six Counties term was used, it would merely confuse. This is self-evident. It is certainly not always the case.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:33, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You still haven't addressed the issue that "six counties" is a much more POV term than "Northern Ireland", and it does no good whatsoever to replace one widely accepted term with one that is used by only a subset of nationalists. Your suggestion of changing other NI references to "Ulster" to somehow "balance it out" makes no difference whatsoever -- "NPOV" does not mean that Wikipedia should be be equally biased in both directions. Demiurge 18:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I did'nt suggest using Ulster when referring to the Six Counties, I said Ulster was more applicable in some instances, e.g. when discussing something that applies to all nine counties. This is often the case. I don't accept that using the term Six Counties is POV, but as I've said, I am also open to the use of other terms. I am still trying to get my head around the concept of being "equally biased".

Lapsed Pacifist 00:48, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


As far as I can see using the term Six Counties is never acceptable unless you are talking specifically about a particular point of view, it simply isn't a term that is acceptably used. Many people in Northern Ireland refer to the Republic of Ireland simply as Down South or sometimes The Free State but I don't believe that these terms should be used to replace Republic of Ireland in an encyclopaedic entry. Ben W Bell 06:58, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If you don't accept that "six counties" is POV then you're either being disingenuous, you don't understand what POV is, or you know very little about Northern Ireland. From seeing your other edits I don't think it's the latter. Demiurge 09:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nor do I. They are highly inaccurate.

Lapsed Pacifist 07:07, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The term Six Counties is no more POV than the term "Northern Ireland". I fully realise it would not be perceived as such by most unionists there and in Britain, but that truth remains. As does the fact that it is by far the most accurate term currently in use.

Lapsed Pacifist 14:50, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First you said using the term "six counties" isn't POV, now you're saying that it's no more POV than the other term that you object to. Make your mind up please. This is going nowhere, I'm reverting your changes to "Northern Ireland". Demiurge 15:16, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Stop trying to make out that the term "Northern Ireland" is only considered NPOV by the unionists and the British. It is perceived as such by most other people in the world excluding Irish nationalists. It is the official name and the name recognised around the world. And why is "Six Counties" far more accurate? It implies that these six counties are merely part of the island of Ireland and not an entity in their own right, which is obviously the line taken by Irish nationalists, but is for that reason pure POV. And since any six counties in any country that has counties can be called "the six counties" it hardly distinguishes anything. -- Necrothesp 15:19, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Correction: most Irish nationalists (the SDLP, the Irish News, the Irish government, all political parties in the Republic bar Sinn Féin, RTÉ) are happy to use "Northern Ireland". Many of them would be unhappy with the term "six counties" as it is a phrase strongly associated with Sinn Féin (and some other fringe republican groups). Demiurge 15:35, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


I certainly don't agree that all the groups you mention are "happy" to use the term "Northern Ireland". Rather I would contend they use it, when they do use it, by default. If you don't wish to make "many of them...unhappy", feel free to use terms you believe would be more appropriate. I know the term six counties is associated with Sinn Féin and even more militant republicans; what no-one here has sought to address is why is the most accurate name for the region in question considered the sole property of this section of the Irish body politic. Again, given its history and the undeniably partial history of its parent state, "Northern Ireland" being the "official name" is a less than robust argument. I agree that there is an inherent implication in the term six counties, just as there is a similar implication in the term "Northern Ireland" which implies a far greater (and homogenous) difference from the rest of Ireland than actually exists and perpetuates a geographical absurdity. Lastly, Demiurge. Early in this discussion you requested I refrain from making any more of the changes we have been discussing until we were finished, and I agreed. I am surprised you did not consider yourself similarly bound.

Lapsed Pacifist 16:26, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Northern Ireland is no more a geographical absurdity than is Austria being distinct from Germany. Both are fact, however much you argue. You also seem to be implying that it is undeniable that the "Six Counties" (it doesn't make it any more valid, incidentally, however much you link it) is the most accurate term. Well, since it is being denied you seem to be arguing from a rather weak position. -- Necrothesp 16:53, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Austria does not claim a geographical position it does not hold. I don't know what the word Austria means, but I would hazard a guess it's not misleading in any way. "Northern Ireland" is certainly a fact, there's no arguing with that. It's right there. Whether or not the editors of an encyclopedia should slavishly follow the preferred phraseology of the entity's authors and supporters is a different kettle of fish.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:39, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are there to present fact. The name "Northern Ireland" and its recognition around the world is a fact. Ergo, we should use it. When I mentioned Austria I was responding to your claim that Northern Ireland was a geographical absurdity. I fail to see why Northern Ireland is an absurdity in any way, either geographically (as you said) or semantically. Is it perhaps in the south of Ireland and we've all been confused for all this time? -- Necrothesp 12:46, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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