Talk:United States Constitution

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United States Constitution is a featured article, which means it has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute.

Archives: /Bill of Rights Joke?, /Failed amendments, /Original texts on Wikipedia, /Problem with editing 12th Amend. §, /Articles on individual amendments, /Miscellaneous

Contents

1 Section on impeachment 2 On the description of the 13th amendment 3 Amending the US Constitution 4 New Intro 5 more bill of rights detail 6 Entire section missing 7 Question of Derivation 8 constitution or current state of government? 9 Corsican constitution of 1755 10 Democracy 11 NPOV disputed 11.1 History 11.1.1 proposed changes 11.2 Principles of government 11.2.1 proposed change 11.3 Amendments 11.3.1 proposed change 11.4 The Bill of Rights (1–10) 11.4.1 proposed change 11.4.2 first amendment 11.4.3 second amendment 11.5 Subsequent amendments (11–27) 11.5.1 Sixteenth Amendment (1913) 11.5.2 Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971) 12 NPOV and democracy 12.1 proposed Democracy addition 13 Two questions 14 Bill of rights

Section on impeachment

I edited the section on impeachment and added a comment to it a disputed section. A senator may have been expelled but not impeached. That raises a question as to the accuracy of the claim that there were 16 impeachments (now 15). Guanaco

Re: RickK According to Article 1, Section 5, it requires a two-thirds vote to "expel" a member of either house of Congress. That vote is taken within that house. Since expulsion and impeachment are two different things, I removed the reference to the impeachment of a senator. See [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=United_States_Constitution&diff=0&oldid=2922660). The number of impeached officials as shown in the edited paragraph is what is disputed. Since part of it has already been proven to be incorrect, it is risky to assume that the rest will be. Guanaco 05:11, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Since you have no specific objection to any specific section of that section, I am removing the header. RickK | Talk 05:30, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Senator William Blount was impeached in 1798. The Senate did not convict him because they had already expelled him, but he was impeached by the House. See also [2] (http://www.miketodd.net/encyc/impeach2.htm).--Jwolfe 11:53, 12 Jun 2004 (UTC)

On the description of the 13th amendment

On the description of the 13th amendment:

It appears to me that the text "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted" can equally well be taken to refer to "slavery and involuntary servitude" and to "involuntary servitude" alone. Historically this exception appears to have been used in order to allow prison work, which surely falls under the rubric of "involuntary servitude" rather than slavery. Moreover, the Supreme Court has established many times that the amendment "abolishes slavery" in no uncertain terms. Some of the quotes are here: http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/constitution/amdt13.html Therefore, I think it justified to simply say that the amendment abolishes slavery.

Comments? --AV

I believe AV's assesment is totally correct. --Daniel C. Boyer

I hadn't thought of the other interpretation. Too bad they didn't have wikipedians around to say "but hey, it could have this second unintended meaning too." --KQ

Amending the US Constitution

The recent edits (see page history between 27 and 29 Feb 2004) about the difficulty amending the US Constitution are mildly interesting but despite several rounds of editing (including my own best efforts) were not presented in a NPOV way. The implied value judgement that it is "too hard" always came through. If someone wants to discuss the amendment process in more detail, I would recommend moving it into a completely new article instead. Rossami 01:29, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)\

I'll start that now. Meelar 01:39, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree with taking that section out of the lead, but after consideration, I decided to add a rephrased note in the "Amending the Constitution" section. See my changes for details. Also, a semi-related note--is "The Constitution owes its staying power to its simplicity and flexibility" really NPOV? To say nothing of "its basic provisions were so soundly conceived that..." Meelar 01:47, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I thought about that some as well. I came to the conclusion that those clauses just barely meet the NPOV rule because they are (to the best of my knowledge) universally held judgements among serious constitutional scholars. Rossami 13:24, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

New Intro

I think there actually is some controversy over this topic (beyond the borderline vandalism this article has been undergoing), so I rewrote the intro to more accurately reflect both sides. Comments? Meelar 21:13, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

---

I changed "inalienable" to "unalienable"--see [3] (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/declar.html). Meelar 20:04, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

the oldest comprehensive written national constitution on Earth still in force??? so what are all these amendments people talk about? It isn't still in force if it has been changed? --BozMo 23:25, 9 May 2004 (UTC)(talk)

It's considered to be still in force, even though it has been amended, it's just in force in a slightly different form. If the amendments had, say, eliminated Congress, than there might be grounds to claim otherwise, but thus far, they haven't altered the fundamental structures of government to the point that they're unrecognizable. Meelar 02:18, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

"the oldest comprehensive written national constitution on Earth still in force" - Why is the reference to Earth there? Are there national constituions (that we know of :) anywhere else? It seems to me like a useless term trying to make the fact seem more grand. I think it should be removed as it serves no purpose. Objections? --153.1.3.150 13:54, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How about "in the world" instead of "on earth"? older≠wiser 14:00, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

more bill of rights detail

Anyone have a big problem if I work these facts into the United States Constitution#Bill of Rights (1-10) section?

• the second amendment is in fact interpreted as being an individual right by the SCOTUS and the meaning of militia and the people are no longer an issue (I know, the sentence in the current article is about the controversy, whether those gnashing their ignorance about it understand current case-law or not); and maybe I can slide in the famous phrase "an individual right but not an absolute one" as regards the determination of who may be excluded and what weapons are protected...I don't want to repeat everything at the Gun Politics article (hell, I don't even want to look at the Gun Politics article because I know I'm going to be disgusted at both sides' ignorance of the SC's rulings...), I just think these things are at least as important to mention as the asides already included in the article.
• the least-contested of the first 10 amendments is the 3rd, having been tested only once, and only a few decades ago, in a case involving the displacement of prison guards from their government housing to quarter scabs during a strike.

...Maybe tomorrow if the Steelers game isn't too exciting... Blair P. Houghton 00:55, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

....The oldest written consitution still in force is that of San Marino (adapted 1600). Compare wikipedia 'San Marino'

San Marino's isn't codified, take a look at Institutions here: [4] (http://www.visitsanmarino.com/defaulte.asp)

Entire section missing

Nice article, but I can't believe it got FA with no section (nor a subarticle) on constitution effects outside USA - i.e. how it influenced the development of other nations constitution and the worldwide spread of the democratic political system. There is only a single sentence in lead and served as a model for numerous other nations' constitutions. When I expanded it with including the second oldest in the world, the May Constitution of Poland which was written in 1791. it got promptly removed by User:Mateo SA with the advice mention of Polish constitution not appropriate for intro - try incorporating that fact later in the article. Unfortunately, there is not a single appopriate section in the entire text for this, or for mentioning the French constitution, other constitution based on USA, the appeal of the USA constitution to the new nations, comparison with other type of constitutions, etc. Please adress this quick, or I feel that this article will have to go through the FA Removal Candidates process for being incomplete. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 12:56, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mateo is right; it is not appropriate for the introduction and should be incorporated elsewhere in the article. I have created a new section, "International impact", and incorporated the information there. Feel free to expand to discuss influence on other countries besides Poland and France. —Lowellian (talk) 23:42, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

I agree a separate section is a better place then lead fot that kind of info. Unfortunately I am no consitution specialist, so I can hope that the team which made the current article FA will work on that section as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:17, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Question of Derivation

The second amendment mentions a "well rounded militia". Might this be the National Guard, or has this body been dissolved over time? And if it is the National Guard, why do I not see any links to them in the amendment? TomStar81

You don't see links because this issue is discussed in the articles Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and militia, not here. —Lowellian (talk) 23:45, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the fill in. TomStar81 03:21, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Also, the actual phrase is "well-regulated". – Mateo SA | talk 03:24, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)

constitution or current state of government?

the "constitution" intro section in the article was already far afield, in my opinion. now it's been expanded to discuss, of all things, the federal reserve! anybody else think that entire section should be tightened and brought back to discussing the subject of the article? SaltyPig 01:55, 2005 Apr 30 (UTC)

Corsican constitution of 1755

Any info on this document and how it influenced the US Constitution? An explanation why it cannot be considered the first constitution would be nice. See Talk:Polish_Constitution_of_May_3,_1791#Corsican_constitution for info I googled so far. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:05, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Democracy

I note that "democracy" isn't mentioned at all in the article, even though the Constitution and its amendments created democratic institutions (albeit highly mitigated; less mitigated over time) in a republican framework. The article doesn't seem complete without mentioning that the Constitution outlines democratic institutions without mentioning the word "democracy" once. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work</span>} 18:50, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

right -- democracy isn't mentioned in the constitution, so why should it be mentioned in the article? unless you want to mention that the founders were well aware of what a nasty, dangerous thing democracy is, and that's why the constitution prohibits it. what does "democratic institutions in a republican framework" mean anyway? you got that from the constitution? what institutions are you talking about, and where in the constitution are these "democratic" institutions outlined? SaltyPig 19:05, 2005 May 11 (UTC)

The House of Representatives, elected directly by the people. Universal suffrage, outlined by Amendments. Direct election of Senators, provided by Amendment. If you want to say that the founders totally rejected democracy, there would be denial going on there. They avoided the word "democracy", but they instilled democratic institutions within the republican framework. This is fact. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work</span>} 02:42, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

The bottom line is, the Constitution provided a way for the people to change their government regularly. That's democracy. The U.S. is a republic, but the U.S. has a democracy. Otherwise, you're calling G.W. Bush a liar every time he refers to the U.S. as a democracy. You wouldn't be doing that, would you? :) — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work</span>} 02:51, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

universal suffrage is more a modification of part of the framework of the republic, but you're correct in aim (more below). and yes, it's a fact that the founders did generally reject democracy (using precision in language there). i do not agree with your claim that the constitution "provided" (past tense) a way for the people to change government regularly (again using precision). however, your point of direct election of senators is valid; it did take the US toward democracy, as did the 16th amendment. if you would add that to the article with care (not ascribing democratic intent to the prior constitution), i support the mod. to answer your question, which i guess was perhaps a joke: yes, i believe GW Bush is a liar and a tyrant when he presumes for the sake of popularity with the ignorant that democracy is good, but i don't see that it matters much to an article about the constitution (other than a new section about its general ineffectiveness in preventing tyranny). on the subject at hand, i would welcome a tight reference in the article to democracy, but not one that attempts to roll previous republican aspects into what we have now. please keep it in historical context and objective, and i'm cool, as i hope most people would be. you're of course right that we do have a democracy now, but mostly because of the failure of the earlier version of the constitution, not its originally stated or historical intent. SaltyPig 03:09, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

I'm not interested in changing the article--It seems to be too tangly for my skills, so I'll leave that up to others. I just wanted to mention that the framers didn't wholly distance themselves from 'democracy' as is often claimed. The House of Representatives was intended to be a directly elected democratic institution from the very beginning. And I generally agree with your position on Bush, but that's another matter. — Stevie is the man! ^{Talk | Work</span>} 17:49, May 12, 2005 (UTC)

NPOV disputed

NOTE: because these are heated subjects, i am attempting to follow wiki policy to the letter. i ask that all participating in any debate or edits do the same. if i've failed in that regard (new at this), please let me know here or on my talk page, and i'll attempt to fix quickly. SaltyPig 02:20, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

History

This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes as it had no method of enforcing payment. It could not even control commerce between the states, leading to a series of conflicting tax laws and tariffs between states. the word "even" indicates bias, implying certain minimum federal control of commerce on which all agree. the phrase "leading to" is not factual, and also shows bias. it could be changed to "allowing", but the entire sentence should be rewritten.

Not only this, but the Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. "Not only this" is the language of somebody with an agenda -- argumentative. it has no place here.

All this was criticized as far exceeding the convention's mandate, and being extralegal besides, but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident and the Congress agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference. "but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident"? to many it was not. the statement is biased, and simply a rewrite of history based on which side won (federalists). this and the statements mentioned above presume the correctness of the action that was taken. not objective, and not NPOV. far from offsetting, the following "after fierce fights over ratification in many of the states" is contradictory.

...the Constitution guarantees the legitimacy of the American state by invoking the American electorate. the constitution may attempt such a thing, but it hardly guarantees it. SaltyPig 23:36, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

proposed changes

This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes as it had no method of enforcing payment. It could not even control commerce between the states, leading to a series of conflicting tax laws and tariffs between states. Not only this, but the Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. States took it so lightly that their representatives were often absent, and the national legislature was very frequently blocked from doing anything, even ineffectual things, pending appearance of a quorum.

to

This government lacked, for example, any power to impose taxes, as it had no method of enforcing payment. It had no authority to override tax laws and tariffs between states. The Articles required unanimous consent from all the states before any changes could take effect. States took the central government so lightly that their representatives were often absent. For lack of a quorum, the national legislature was frequently blocked from making even ineffectual changes. SaltyPig 05:34, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

---

All this was criticized as far exceeding the convention's mandate, and being extralegal besides, but the paralysis of the Articles of Confederation government was evident and the Congress agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference.

to

These actions were criticized as exceeding the convention's mandate and existing law. However, Congress, noting dissatisfaction with the Articles of Confederation government, agreed to submit the proposal to the states despite the exceeded terms of reference. SaltyPig 05:34, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

Principles of government

if the word "rights" is to refer both to natural rights and to allowances under the constitution, delineation would be helpful and accurate. i am including this as an NPOV dispute because there are many who explicitly presume that the constitution grants rights to the people when it does not. it's POV. the assertion that State actors acting in the name of the people have the right to change their form of national government by means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution itself implies that rights (not allowances) flow from the constitution. that is contradicted by the constitution (e.g., amendments 1, 2, 4, 9). a seemingly minor point to some, but it wasn't minor to the framers. their language tended toward precision on the matter. SaltyPig 23:36, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

proposed change

State actors acting in the name of the people have the right to change their form of national government by means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution itself.

to

By means defined in the Fifth Article of the Constitution, Congress may propose amendments to the Constitution. Moreover, any two thirds of the states may themselves initiate a convention for proposing amendments. When ratified as specified, all amendments are considered part of the Constitution. SaltyPig 06:02, 2005 May 26 (UTC)

Amendments

This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document: it is written in broad terms that are continually reinterpreted by the courts. should be modified so that it doesn't imply that all reinterpretation by the courts is over "broad terms". there is explicit language in the constitution that has been "reinterpreted" to mean something other than what it clearly says. some may argue that the statement i just made is non-NPOV; however, it's no more non-NPOV than the blanket "broad terms" assertion. the statement needs balance, if not simply accuracy. SaltyPig 23:37, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

proposed change

This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document: it is written in broad terms that are continually reinterpreted by the courts.

to

This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document, as much of it is written in broad terms. The Constitution is continually reinterpreted by the courts, and there is often dispute over these rulings. Some argue that judges cross from mere interpretation to rewriting, thereby bypassing the prescribed amendment process (see Judicial activism). Others counter that broad judicial interpretation is essential for the Constitution to remain relevant to changing times.

not happy with this proposed change myself, and i expect there will be opposition. perhaps it might help to say that i was almost gagging when i wrote it! anyway, please give suggestions for improvement that at least cut down somewhat on the POV of the current version. SaltyPig 03:37, 2005 May 29 (UTC)

I don't think the subject of judicial activism really belongs in an analysis of the constitution. That's an article for another page. The flexibility of the document means that Congress has considerable latitude to legislate in light of new situations. (For example, using the interstate commerce clause to legislate telecommunications.)

You might change the statement to something like: "This relatively small number is usually attributed to the simplicity and flexibility of the document. The Constituion gives Congress considerable freedom to create laws which deal with new situations not forseen by the Constitution's authors, subject to judicial review e.g., using the interstate commerce clause to create legislation regulating telecommunications."

Most situations where the courts review the constitutionality of laws are not controversial and "broad judicial interpretation" ignored the justices who advocate a very narrow reading of the Constitution. Any attempt to include "judicial activism" (a spurious charge at best considering both sides levy it against each other) results in an injection of bias. Better to just discuss the flexibility to create new legislation and leave it at that. Kbrooks 03:56, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

thanks for the comments. i believe you're arguing for your personal bias here though. many people (the principal author of the constitution among them (http://www.constitution.org/jm/18170303_veto.htm)) disagree that the constitution gives such "considerable freedom" as in your example of claiming that the commerce clause covers telecommunications. though i don't like my proposed change, it does cover two major opinions and doesn't claim either is correct. i don't have any problem not using the loaded term (or link) "judicial activism", but i also don't think it's true to state, as the article does now, that there's a blanket flexibility there. much of what the courts have ruled over the years violates the constitution directly (e.g., mccain-feingold, about which several supreme court justices said as much themselves), or at least takes it into territory which people such as james madison said explicitly is not flexible in the least. i don't agree with your claim that "Most situations where the courts review the constitutionality of laws are not controversial". do you have a suggestion which doesn't get into this territory in any way (rather than just one way)? the article as it stands on this subject is POV, showing only the "do what thou wilt" school of constitutional law -- a point of view. it is not wikipedia's concern what "both sides" do (not sure what that means); the article should discuss the constitution and how its followed or not. there seems to be a view in this country that whatever is allowed to be done must be constitutional. i hope that's not a view you want the article to hold. BTW, i am for removing this section if a balance can't be reached. SaltyPig 04:54, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

Actually, I'd say it's just better to leave the sentence out altogether. The issue--whether judicial interpretation affects the frequency of amendment--is only peripherally relevant to the issue of the Constitution's amendments, and is ultimately speculative. Wikipedia does not offer opinions--it only describes existing information. We should be skeptical of offering speculation like this. When we do provide it, it should be backed up with specific references, so readers know it is not just a contributor's opinion.

That being said, the issue of interpretation of the Constitution belongs elsewhere in the article. There should be an article describing the issue of "Strict Constructionism" vs. the "Living Constitution"; how the Constitution is interpreted very broadly in practice today, but how many criticize that practice.

I also think that the reference to "judicial activism" is POV. It puts too much emphasis on the judicial branch. In many cases—such as with the Second Amendment—the issue is whether the legislative or executive branches are going beyond the limits imposed by the Constitution. In cases like that, the critics are actually alleging "judicial passivism". Mateo SA | talk 05:09, Jun 4, 2005 (UTC)

i agree with most of that. barring objection, let's remove it from this part; anybody who wants to write a more complete analysis can. SaltyPig 05:32, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

I'd agree with removing the statement entirely. After reading the comments, I'd have to agree with Mateo that any mention of judical activism injects POV. Kbrooks 06:10 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

The Bill of Rights (1–10)

the section states fairly objectively that the supreme court has interpreted the 14th amendment "to extend some, but not all, parts of the Bill of Rights to the states." however, 2 paragraphs later, it states, "The ten amendments collectively known as the Bill of Rights remain as they were adopted two centuries ago." this is after the article asserts correctly, "Unlike most constitutions, amendments to the U.S. constitution are appended to the existing body of the text, rather than being revisions of or insertions into the main articles."

if there is no provision to revise the literal text of the constitution, then the statement that the first ten amendments "remain as they were adopted two centuries ago" is meaningless, and implies that the bill of rights has not been trammeled. considering that millions of US citizens disagree, especially lately, and considering that the article itself asserts explicitly that the 14th amendment and the supreme court changed the practical meaning of the bill of rights, the claim should be rewritten or stricken. it is not NPOV. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

it's often claimed, and the article does it as well, that the bill of rights wasn't "intended" to apply to the states. however, here is another internal contradiction of the article; it discusses guarantees for judicial matters which seem quite strongly to be mostly, if not entirely, state related. this is a contradiction practiced generally, but it shouldn't be ignored simply because most gloss over the problem; if the article is not going to address the contradiction, the previous claim that the bill of rights wasn't intended to apply to the states should be removed. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC) SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Huh? The judicial matters could easily apply to Federal courts. Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if the intent of the BOR to apply only to the Federal government were a matter of historical record. In any case, I do know that that was the accepted judicial interpretation of their intent until the courts began applying them to the states after the 14th amendment.

historical record of intent or not, the document contains no such general restrictions on applicability. the all-inclusive language of most of the BOR, combined with the supremacy clause, requires that all arguments on general inapplicability to the states go extra-constitutional. that's fine, but what the constitution itself says is at least as important for this article. SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

proposed change

Originally, the Bill of Rights was not intended to apply to the states; for instance, some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion. This interpretation of these Amendments remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that:

to

It is commonly understood that the Bill of Rights was not originally intended to apply to the states, though except where amendments refer specifically to the Federal Government or a branch thereof (as in the first amendment, under which some states in the early years of the nation officially established a religion), there is no such delineation in the text itself. Nevertheless, a general interpretation of inapplicability to the states remained until 1868, when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, which stated, in part, that: SaltyPig 08:53, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

first amendment

The first guarantees freedom of worship, speech, and press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right to petition the government to correct wrongs. It also prohibits Congress from passing "any law respecting an establishment of religion"—making this amendment a battlefield in the late-20th century culture wars. the first amendment does not guarantee anything except that congress shall make no law regarding those matters (even there the "guarantee" failed). further, the paragraph is self-contradictory when it states that the first amendment "also prohibits Congress from passing" anything. the prohibition on congress is on congress alone, and it applies to everything listed in the first amendment. if the article is to discuss here 20th century interpretation by the courts, it needs to be labeled correctly. as written, it is not factual, and is a point of view. what is wrong with simply stating exactly what the first amendment says, even if in abridged form? as written, this part of the article is interpretation. SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Mateo SA, i like much of your 1st amend changes, but i think it has a small interpretation problem in a different way now. new version: "The first amendment addresses the rights of freedom of speech and the press; the right of peaceful assembly; and the right of petition. It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting government establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion."

it's good that you didn't try to cover everything. my only quibble is with the "prohibiting government establishment of religion" part. the amendment merely prohibits congress from making a law respecting it -- a point that's often ignored these days. seems a small tweak (one that avoids mentioning congress and government) could bring the entire thing into line with the actual text while also avoiding any potential POV claims for volatile territory. what do you think? SaltyPig 05:20, 2005 May 29 (UTC)

I've adjusted the relevant sentence to read as follows: "It also addresses freedom of religion, both in terms of prohibiting thegovernment establishment of religion and protecting the right to free exercise of religion." My intent in rewriting the paragraph was to provide a completely neutral description of the amendment—i.e., to describe the concepts it addresses, without adopting one particular POV regarding its interpretation and application. I prefer that it said something like "literally, the amendment prevents Congress from respecting the establishment, etc.; it has been applied and interpreted in the following ways: . . ." However, I'm not sure there is a way to describe all the issues surrounding the amendment in a way that's both neutral and succinct enough for this article. Perhaps we could try expanding the description a little more, while directing readers to see the main article on the First Amendment (though that article also needs work). Mateo SA | talk 04:36, May 30, 2005 (UTC)

i think it's fine. i like the idea of keeping it very simple while also, when possible, avoiding simply quoting the constitution. that's a difficult task though, as we've seen. it may be that this section would be better as a direct quote, but with wikilinks. as it stands, however, it's improved. still, it's hard to say the same thing as the constitution in a different way without making it longer. anyway, i look forward to your future changes. it would be nice for the article eventually to offer avenues for the more considerate disagreements over the constitution -- linking to geekier articles both at wikipedia and outside. the first amendment, for example, is so simple and clear, yet it's one of the most over-invoked and least understood pieces of law in history. maybe wikipedia can help reduce that strange disconnect. SaltyPig 05:27, 2005 May 30 (UTC)

second amendment

The second guarantees the right to keep and bear arms to a well-regulated militia (well-regulated meaning fit for a purpose and militia meaning the body of citizens likely to be of service in defense of the state). this is not correct. it's an interpretation, and should be marked as such. there are many problems with this section (including the use of the word "guarantees", and the offered definition of "well-regulated"), but using the militia clause to restate militias as the primary subject of the amendment is POV. the language of the amendment is clear, in that the right is explicitly coupled to the people ("the right of the people to keep and bear Arms"). if this section is intending to state what some courts have held as the interpretation of the amendment, it must be clear what it's doing, otherwise it's POV and not factual.

here is an example rewrite which might bother some people, but which is accurate with regard to what the amendment says (not somebody's, or even my, interpretation): "The second amendment prohibits the infringement of the right of the people to keep and bear arms, and lists 'a well regulated Militia' as the reason."

uncomfortable? that's what it says (http://www.constitution.org/cons/constitu.htm#bor4)! SaltyPig 23:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

No, that is not what it says. The amendment says: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. The amendment does not "list" the militia as the "reason" for the amendment; it simply places two statements side-by-side. Your proposed description interprets the amendment as much as the original description. Mateo SA | talk 01:29, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

that's an absurd claim (for english speakers anyway), but you raise a great point: if the only thing that people can agree on is the literal text, put that as the only attempt to say what it says. it's short enough. i'm all for it. SaltyPig 03:23, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

If it's an absurd claim, why do you feel the need to provide your own redefinition of the amendment? The English language is inherently imprecise (though maybe the "english" language is not). If a sentence (like the second amendment) has only one possible meaning, then no other sentence can stand in its place. Your interpretation of the amendment as listing a reason relies on assumptions about the context of the amendment and the intention of its authors. You assume that the drafters of the amendment intended the first part simply as an offhand remark on the purpose of the amendment, and that that part can consequently be ignored. If that is so, then the drafters were not very precise or careful in writing the second amendment—which would contradict your own assertion that the amendment is unambiguous. My problem is that you insist that the amendment has only one possible meaning: the one you prefer. Mateo SA | talk 05:16, May 15, 2005 (UTC)

i don't see how you get pretty much any of what you say — about the amendment, about what i wrote above, or your claim that there's only one precise construction under which a sentence may keep its meaning. i do love to argue about things like that (off the article talk pages), but not with people who imply that it's relevant or meaningful that i don't cap "english". relevant here is that i obviously don't "feel the need" to provide my interpretation of the amendment, as my edit to the article shows quite well. do you have a problem with that section now (in the article, not here)? my only problem with it is pre-existing material i kept in the interest of making as few changes as possible. i'll leave it, assuming no objection. remember, the issue here is the article, not our opinions on the second amendment, which will probably always disagree. i'm done editing the second amendment part if it's okay. please comment here, or make desired changes to the article directly. i take it from your assertions that we at least agree that the prior interpretation should not stand as it was (unmarked). thanks. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

Further discussion on the Second Amendment's grammatical structure might use this (http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm) analysis produced last year by the Department of Justice. Any analysis of the amendment should include arguments from the individualist, collective and quasi-collective schools of thought. Kbrooks 06:19 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Kbrooks, i think we solved this, though the argument's still there. have you seen the current version? probably the only solution is to quote the second amendment verbatim and get out as quickly as possible. the arguments over syntax have no end. if you have changes though, make 'em and we can bat it around. SaltyPig 06:40, 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Thanks, Salty. Looks fine to me. Just didn't know if this was an ongoing topic, or not. Kbrooks 06:51 2005 Jun 5 (UTC)

Subsequent amendments (11–27)

Sixteenth Amendment (1913)

"Authorizes the income tax." should be changed to "Authorizes taxes on incomes." "the income tax" unnecessarily implies that phrase as we recognize it today, and also has the faint odor of a sequential conflict (cart before horse). using the language of the amendment is simple and precise, allowing for disputes without getting into it. a fine point, admitted, but there's nothing lost in making the change. SaltyPig 23:39, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

Twenty-sixth Amendment (1971)

the text: "Establishes right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." the description for the nineteenth amendment is: "Ensures right of women to vote." the relevant language of the two amendments is identical, and presumes a pre-existing right. should be changed to "Ensures right of eighteen-year-olds to vote." (or similar, with the 19th and 26th in agreement) SaltyPig 23:39, 2005 May 12 (UTC)

I decided to be bold and make some clarifications to the descriptions in this section (inlcuding SaltyPig's suggestions above), which I hope are not too controversial (the 21st amendment situation in particular is a bit tricky because of the recent Supreme Court opinion that limits import restrictions). Ddye 00:15, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

NPOV and democracy

i plan to edit within a few days all the sections listed in my NPOV dispute above. i also will try to put in something about democracy and the changes to the constitution in that regard, as suggested by Stevietheman. if anybody has any objection on principle, it'd be helpful to hear it sooner rather than later, though of course some objections will need to wait until the edits are done. if anything now, please speak up. thanks. SaltyPig 20:31, 2005 May 14 (UTC)

While I think there are some NPOV issues in the article, it is also quite clear that no article can be written without any point of view. In fact, wikipedia specifically follows a position of "neutral point of view", which does not imply that no arguments can be presented but that wikipedia won't take a position. With a document as often reinterpreted as the US constitution, it is particularly difficult to present the content without also covering some interpretations.

So what I would suggest is this: put your proposed changes on this talk page, give it a day for comments, and, if there are no concerns, place them in the actual article. sebmol 21:16, 14 May 2005 (UTC)

okay. i don't have a problem with proposed edits going straight into the article after advance general notice like i've given, but i don't mind putting them here first if you think that's better. BTW, i agree very much with what you say about NPOV; sometimes it's spoken of as an achievable thing, when it's more just an idealized target. still, i think there's room to straighten this article out a bit, especially in those first couple of statements. i already edited the 2nd amendment section, in case you hadn't seen that; it keeps interpretations, but only those so identified. covert interpretations presented as fact should be removed/edited when possible. SaltyPig 00:05, 2005 May 15 (UTC)

proposed Democracy addition

No form of the word democracy is found in the Constitution. Some framers of the document argued (perhaps most notably in the Federalist Papers, especially 10 and 51) that democracy in its pure form is a danger to liberty, and that the natural impulses of factions and majority should be dampened via a republican framework. Hence, for example, Senators were to be elected to 6-year terms by their respective state legislatures, and President and Vice President were to be chosen via "electors". This isolated these offices somewhat from transient public opinion. The three branches of the Federal Government were also thought to contribute a dampening effect, as they would naturally oppose and offset one another to a degree. The Constitution guarantees "to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..."

Though not specified in the Constitution, voting in the U.S. was mostly limited to white, male landowners. Beginning with the fourteenth (ratified under duress in 1868), many amendments were added which brought the U.S. closer to a direct democracy: Amendment fifteen prohibits denial or abridgement, on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude, of the right to vote. Amendment sixteen gives Congress the power to tax incomes directly. Amendment seventeen transfers the elective power for senators to the people of their respective states (from the state legislatures). Amendment nineteen prohibits denial or abridgement, on account of sex, of the right to vote. Amendment twenty-three allows for the participation of the District of Columbia in the election of President and Vice President. Amendment twenty-four prohibits denial or abridgement, by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax, of the right to vote in elections for federal office. Amendment twenty-six prohibits denial or abridgement, on account of age, of the right of those eighteen years of age or older to vote. SaltyPig 10:54, 2005 Jun 4 (UTC)

This proposal is extraordinarily POV, and is logically inconsistent. It also contains a number of factual errors and misrepresentations.

I should first point out the meanings of the words "democracy" and "republic" have shifted over time, both before and after the American Revolution. The Federalist Papers defined democracy as a system in which in the people (i.e., those permitted to vote) as a whole participate directly in government. They defined a republic as a system in which the government is run by representatives elected by the people, and in which there are various limitations on the power of government. In particular, they focused on republics as protecting the rights of political minorities against the majority. Modern definitions of "democracy", (e.g., [5] (http://www.answers.com/topic/democracy?method=5)) however, simply define it as a category of government in which political power is in the hands of the people in general, rather than a select group. This definition includes both "direct" democracy and representative government. This proposal uses both of those meanings, shifting between them to make its arguments.

The first paragraph of the proposal generally refers to the definitions used in the Federalist Papers. It focuses on the idea that government should be limited, and the principle of majority rule be balanced by the idea of minority rights. It is generally accurate. (It does ignore the basic discrepancy in the Federalist Papers: the writers argued for rule by the people, rather than a specific class, but limited the definition of the people to a narrowly defined group.)

The second paragraph, however, shifts away from this definition, although it specifically uses the term "direct democracy". It focuses on the types of people permitted to vote. This has nothing to do with the concept of representative vs. direct popular government. What does determining who is permitted to vote have to do with whether the voters participate directly or indirectly? This definition does have more to do the modern definition of democracy: government by the people as a whole, rather than a select group. But it directly contradicts the arguments of the first paragraph.

Some specific logical inconsistencies:

• The Fourteenth Amendment does nothing to shift government toward direct democracy. In fact, by protecting the rights of political minorities, it arguably moves the constitution more towards "republicanism".
• Why isn't the Thirteenth Amendment included in this definition? It expanded the types of people permitted to participate in government.
• "The Constitution guarantees "to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government..."" - This is incorrect. The Constitution instructs the "United States" to guarantee "to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government...". (By the way, this is the only part of the constitution that uses any form of the word "republic"—and this only refers to state governments, not the federal government.)

Mateo SA | talk 16:15, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

the reversion of this edit makes me wonder why i bothered posting anything here first. it was sitting here, complete with the issues you object to, while you were active at wikipedia and in the article. anyway, re your objections:

extraordinarily POV? i think you're wrong on that and several of your claims (see below). argument? i wasn't trying to make an argument. what you wrote about changing definitions is true; how it relates to this section isn't clear to me though. widening the group of voters does relate to the "directness" of democracy. otherwise, one could argue that a monarchy is a really really really limited democracy. is it perhaps a subtle influence? yes. but bear in mind that no amendment listed in the section is purported to be a drastic move toward direct democracy. rather, they contribute. further, amendments 16 and 17 do take the US government cleanly toward a "directer" democracy.

my reply to your bullets:

• 14th: the fourteenth amendment apparently penalized states that limited the voting of any 21+ aged male. it's a very weak aspect, and one reason why i didn't even go into it. still, i think that's the best starting point.
• 13th: not sure i agree with that, but don't object to it being added as the start of the move.
• guarantee of republican form: i shared until recently your new opinion on the word "guarantee", but considering its similar use elsewhere in the article (including in edits by you (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=United_States_Constitution&diff=14017775&oldid=14005938)), i defer to a plausible definition of the word: a stated assurance or promise. and no, the assertion that it "only refers to state governments" is incorrect. the constitution guarantees to the states a republican form of government. there is no specification that the republican form of government is only within the states. since the states are governed by the central government as well as themselves, it is logically a constraint on the federal government (that it must be republican), perhaps even more so than on states. FTR (in case you're implying it), i made no claim that the moves toward democracy violate the constitution itself; i don't believe it is technically possible for an amendment to violate the constitution (not sure about that though).

reminder: it was not i who proposed adding a democracy section to the article. but now that it's composed, i do see value to its inclusion, even if in drastically shortened form from what i wrote. i'd appreciate it if you'd address these issues and edit accordingly. if you feel there should be no section specifically addressing the subject of democracy, then please state that flat out so we don't waste time arguing over points you don't want in the article anyway. thanks. SaltyPig 16:57, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

I apologize for not responding to this proposal sooner, but I was trying to think of a way to respond to it. I did not expect you to stick it into the article so quickly, without any favorable comments.

A direct democracy is defined as a system in which the people directly participate in government. That is, the people gather together in a "town meeting," individuals make proposals, and the assembled people vote on the proposals. The central issue here is whether those permitted to vote govern directly, or indirectly, through representatives. The issue of who is permitted to vote at all is separate, and was not considered by the Federalist Papers. The Papers focused in particular on ancient Greek city-states as examples of "pure" democracies, putting them as perfect illustrations. The Greek democracies severely limited the types of people who were permitted to participate in the democracy (excluding women, slaves, etc.), but were still considered pure democracies by the writers of the Papers.

widening the group of voters: "widening the group of voters does relate to the "directness" of democracy. otherwise, one could argue that a monarchy is a really really really limited democracy." Flipping your argument around, you must logically conclude that the perfect republic, one that is not at all democratic, is a monarchy. I.e., the wider the group of voters, the more the system moves toward direct democracy and away from republicanism; conversely, the narrower the group of voters, the more the system moves towards republicanism, and therefore the most republican government is one that has only one voter—a monarchy. The answer to this paradox is that the issue of who is allowed to vote is not a feature that distinguishes between republics and democracies, at least not using the definitions used in the Federalist papers and in your proposal.

The Sixteenth Amendment: "amendments 16 and 17 do take the US government cleanly toward a "directer" democracy." (Did you mean clearly?) How does the Sixteenth Amendment do that? What does an income tax have to do with whether people participate in government directly or indirectly?

guarantee of republican form: I am not referring to the defintion of the word guarantee. I am referring to the first 4 words of Article IV, Section 4: "The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government. The Constitution does not itself guarantee the Republican form of government—it tells the "United States" (which, in the Const., usually means the federal govt.) to do that. I am using the same "precision" that you have insisted on elsewhere. And to remind you of the current state of the article (as you have done to me before), I have since revised those changes that included the word "guarantee".

I think some mention of the concepts of democracy should be included in the article, but it should be far more logically thought out than this proposal. I don't think that we need to discuss the concept of democracy right now. It is not directly relevant to the article, as it is a comment on the constitution, rather than a discussion of it. I think it should be avoided for now, until someone can research the concept more closely. Mateo SA | talk 18:38, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Mateo SA | talk 18:02, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

i don't think you'll find anywhere in the proposed section that i claim the US is a direct democracy. seems to be what you're implying.

yes, i agree with your monarchy argument as long as you don't call it perfect republic. i would call it an extreme republic, and not necessarily desirable, though perhaps hardly less desirable than the current mess of US government. i think you're fixating on this direct democracy extreme. if one accepts that it's reasonable to put republicanism and direct democracy on two sides of a rough continuum (not mathematically, but generally), then i don't see that there's much to get hung up on in what i wrote. widening the group of voters moves more toward the direct democracy side. that's all i said, but you seem to have it that i'm making some wild claims. it wasn't that revolutionary.

no, i did mean "cleanly", not "clearly". the 16th takes it there because direct taxation is a direct involvement in the government, in a way that indirect taxation, and sometimes even voting, can't approach. again, is it literal "direct democracy"? of course not. however, the taxation side is quite powerful, and can influence government in the same way as a vote. the aggregate loss of individual tax income (an option that some are choosing now) perhaps has more effect on government than voting (and should probably be used more than it is). i stand behind the inclusion of the 16th. it's not a "logical" problem on my side.

on the guarantee part, thanks for that clarification. i see what you meant now. well, keep that in mind when you refine the democracy section! LOL. i've done my part, though i hope you don't leave out entirely the framers on democracy (whatever form you want to call what they weighed in against), and how that affected the original and current versions of the constitution. it's relevant. SaltyPig 18:34, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

maybe somebody'll find the time/inclination to work this up. considering how much people yap about "democracy" these days, probably worth a mention here, at least with regard to why it's not mentioned at all in the constitution. i don't feel like running the gauntlet on it, considering the payoff. SaltyPig 18:49, 2005 Jun 6 (UTC)

O.K. I apologize for reacting so strongly. I probably should have made at least a basic comment about your proposal earlier than I did. Hopefully, this topic can be addressed in the future. Mateo SA | talk 03:38, Jun 7, 2005 (UTC)

Two questions

Primacy of US Constitution or primacy of international law in US ? --80.127.169.179 08:50, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

I do not understand what you are asking. Please write in complete sentences. Mateo SA | talk 22:31, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

If there is any discrepancy between the international treaties signed by US and the US Constitution, which one will prevail ?

The Constitution prevails in all cases. Ratified international treaties come second.Ddye 12:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is US President entitled to submit legislative proposals to Congress ?

Only members of Congress can introduce bills into Congress. But anyone can suggest or submit legislative proposals to those members. The President is not more or less entitled than anyone else. Mateo SA | talk 22:55, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

That is correct, under Congressional rules only members actually submit proposed bills, but there are two points worth noting. First, the "state of the union" clause in article 2 section 3 does give the President a unique position to propose legislation "He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient...". Second, in the modern budget process the President is required by law to submit an annual budget to Congress, though the actual appropriation measures are still proposed by members. Ddye 12:53, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Bill of rights

On the Bill_of_Rights_1689 page it says:

"The (British) Bill of Rights 1689 is a predecessor of the United States Constitution"

Either this should be mentioned on the United States Constitution page, or it should be deleted from the Bill_of_Rights_1689 page. I've added it to the constitution page for the moment, anyhow.

At the moment the article implies that the constitution was just dreamed up out of thin air, which simply isn't true. It is a collection of the best legal principles and rights from elsewhere. Magna Carta was also influential - that's one of the reason's it's on display next to the United States Constitution in the National Archives.

Rnt20 19:51, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

though i question the logic above ("Either this should be mentioned on the United States Constitution page, or it should be deleted from the Bill_of_Rights_1689 page."), the problem is larger with regard to accuracy and support. "predecessor" can mean only that it came before. precedence doesn't necessarily mean influence. is it likely? maybe. still shouldn't be stated as fact here w/o better reference. mere similarity doesn't prove influence.

anyway, your new version is improved. can you maybe find (and add) sources though to support that stated ties go beyond similarity? also, it might be good, if influence is substantiated, to say that a source influenced parts of, for example, the bill of rights, rather than the entire constitution. you did improve that aspect though. thanks. and good job zapping the "human rights" blah blah there; it's far removed from the US constitution. SaltyPig 01:43, 2005 Jun 13 (UTC)